Surveyings Future? 2

[beelzebub]

The decline of surveying in Australia is rearing its ugly head faster and faster. Is this happening everywhere else?

Between wages being disgustingly low and the fact that no one knows what it is Surveyors do, resulting in the intake of Surveying students becoming smaller and smaller, the number of surveyors out there that are willing to remain in the industry is appalling.

Team this with the fact that many of the people who do remain in the industry, whether they be surveyors or fieldhands, only remain in the industry because they are basically unemployable elsewhere and only retain their jobs by virtue of being licensed or by the sad fact that to hire and train a fieldhand to a subpar level to replace the subpar employees is just not feasible.

Is this a widespread problem or just the disillusioned rant of a jaded "young" man?

 

[jheidt2543]

In my humble opinion, it is &quot;just the disillusioned rant of a jaded &quot;young&quot; man&quot;. What a great profession, where else can you get paid for looking through a &quot;peep sight&quot;? <G>

 

[tim216]

DISILLUSIONED OR NOT THE COLD HARD FACTS IS THIS IS A DYING PROFESSION IN THE UNITED STATES TOO. WE ARE NOT LICENSEING NEAR THE NUMBERS TO MEET THE DEMAND. I HAVE HEARD AND READ BOTH SIDES. SOME SAY A DEGREE REQUIREMENT IS AT FAULT WHILE OTHERS SAY SALARY IS AN ISSUE. MYSELF, I BELIEVE IT IS COMBINATION OF THE TWO.
A YOUNG MAN OUT OF COLEDGE WITH A DEGREE IN EITHER ENGINEERING OR SURVEYING ISNT GOING TO BE ATTRACTED BY THE SALARIES OFFERED IN MOST STATES. SOMEONE THAT HAS BEEN IN THIS PROFESSION WITHOUT A DEGREE ISNT GOING TO BE ABLE TO ADVANCE. SO WE HAVE A DILEMA.
I STARTED IN THE EARLY 80'S IN THE ARMY AND SERVED FOR 13 YEARS AND DECIDED TO TRY THE PRIVATE SECTOR. AFTER 4 YEARS I WENT TO THE CONSTRUCTION SIDE WORKING FOR A CONTRACTOR SIMPLY BECAUSE I COULDNT AFFORD TO COMPETE WITH OTHER SURVEYORS THAT WOULD UNDERCUT PRICES JUST TO GET JOBS.
SO I AM NEITHER YOUNG NOR JADED. I LOVE AND ENJOY THIS WORK , BUT BEELZEBUB HAS HIT A FEW NAILS RIGHT ON THE HEAD AND IF WE SURVEYORS CANT ADMIT IT TO OURSELVES HOW CAN WE EXPECT TO CHANGE THE PUBLICS VEIW AND ATTRACT THE YOUNGER GENERATION INTO THIS WONDERFUL PROFESSION

 

[beelzebub]

Don't get me wrong, I love my job, where else can you get the same mix of both feild work and office work? I dont want to be just another labourer but neither do I want to be office bound.

Its just very hard to be happy when you have to work with people who either shouldnt be doing the job or dont want to be doing the job and then go home to try and work out how to stretch your meagre pay cheque out over your bills.

 

[jheidt2543]

Beelzebub,

I didn't mean to be too flip in my comment. As you say, surveying is a great profession. I'm a civil engineer by training, but took enough surveying courses to understand and do the work. I've always enjoyed working in the field, although most of my experiance has been in building construction, rather than &quot;true&quot; surveying.

Some of what you're saying confuses me. First wages aren't high enough, but then you want more people in the field. It would seem to me that as the number of surveyors goes down, the salaries should go up, simple supply and demand.

Today, with all the computerized equipment, EDM, GPS etc. the work would seem to be more fun and you should be able to do more in less time. I have to agree though, that some of the people doing the work look upon it as a JOB and could care less about accuracy and completeness.

 

[beelzebub]

Ahh, I can see your point, but the increase in the technical ability of the equipment has caused a few things to happen.

A) Few companies can afford the new equipment, so the smaller companies get smaller

B) The border line companies that can just afford the equipment, like robotic total stations, figure that because the gear is supposed to make life easier the field crew can either be less trained or even a one mane field crew.

C) The Client has started to demand more and more from you because in his opinion you should be working twice as fast for half the price.

D) Poor training on the new equipment means the surveyor may be slower than they would be if they were using their old methods. Its no point giving an old school surveyor a top of the line instrument if he doesn’t know how to use it, he will spend half his time either setting the new gear up or trying to work out how to use it when he could have just done the job quicker and with a lot less grief than now.

And the list goes on and on...

Also, on your point that less surveyors means less money, that doesn’t really work. I know, in Australia anyway, that the number of qualified surveyors is dropping; you only have to look around our office to see that, 90% of the surveyors are within 10 years of retirement. This may help me in the short term, but the decrease in people gaining qualifications has been pretty much equal to the number of &quot;cowboys&quot; out there offering &quot;surveying services”. The average man on the street doesn’t know the difference and doesn't appreciate the trouble that could possibly arise from using a non-accredited surveyor. The industries governing body needs to increase the public knowledge of the industry.

 

[jheidt2543]

Fewer surveyors should mean MORE money for the ones that are left.

From my years working for a contractor, it doesn't matter what the first price is that you quote - it is always too high for the Owner! The selling of surveying, like any other service or product, is best done based on personal relationships. Basically, you have to sell yourself to the client. We all like to think we can &quot;just do the work&quot;, but the reality is you have to get work (sell the product, close the deal) before you can do the work. There should be a two credit course in salesmenship along about your senior year in surveying school.

Yes, equipment has a learning curve, the higher the technology the steeper the curve. But, now that you use a computer would you go back to the slide ruler (assuming you remember a slide ruler <G>)? No, you are too far up the learning curve to go back, you've invested the time and now the return on the investment kicks in. That return should not be judged only on increased wages, but efficiency, job satifaction and many other things should enter into it too.

Hang in there! As land values start going up, the surveyor will needed more and more.

Keep a level line!

 

[tim216]

The reasoning that fewer surveyors should mean higher wages goes with basic marketing,however the trend seems to be this ( in my area ) companies invest in new technology, with the intent of thoroughly training the staff BUT, what ends up happening in offices is this most registered ( not all ) dont have clue how most of this stuff works. So you end up with field crews that are nothing more than button pushers. If the computer has bad information then they dont know how to correct it on site, you have kids with a tech shool degree in auto doing field and staking comps and they dont realy have a clue what a jobsite looks like. In the end it all comes back to money. Surveyors will under bid each other and allow realtors and developers to dictate prices so what you have are low job prices which result in low wages which results in lower quality employees.
I love this profession all most as much as my wife but as I see it surveyors are opening the door to losing service to engineers or some other group.

 

[jheidt2543]

Tim216,

You raise some good points. The people doing the field work MUST have some idea as to the use of their end product. What will the survey be used for? This sounds simple, but if the field crew doing the layout doesn't understand why they are doing the survey and how it will be used it leads to added costs all around. This is particularly true when doing layouts for construction projects.

I would rather pay a little more to have the layout right, than get half way through the job and find out something was laid out wrong. I had three different surveying firms do layout projects for building construction and all three had &quot;simple&quot; errors in their work. Two were do to their belief that the computer was right so, they didn't check their work in the field (total station layouts from one point without closing the survey). The other problem was not getting enough site information for a drainage design of a parking lot. All simple stuff, but the field crew just didn't think ahead to what the survey was to be used for. A more extensive prejob meeting may solve some of this.

You are right that technology alone will not solve the understanding problem, it is only a tool. But, I still believe the firm that can rightly sell its services on more than just pounding hubs in the ground will eventually win out (assuming they can last that long <G>).

 

[tim216]

jheidt2543

I totaly agree with your analogy and in some cases I had clients that felt that they would rather pay a little more to get good quality survey work. But from what I have seen in my area the majority of companies have put more stress on creating button pusher than on teaching crew members the&quot; Art of surveying &quot; . It seems that to me unless we surveyors dont get back to basics then we are in trouble.
When I ran crews I used to my guys that surveyors got by fine for over 200 years with a transit and a steel tape, this computer does you no good if you dont know how they did it. I think this going to be a topic that will get alot of attention I just hope it is for the better of the profession and not something that we as surveyors say if only I had done this.

Tim

 

[AllenS]

One of the reasons that the money does not increase as the is more work for less Surveyors is that there always seams to be someone out there running a “Map Factory”. This type of person will always lowball a price to get the work. Then he will divide his time using the formula: I have 10 surveys to get out this week. That means that I can devote 4 hours of field crew time and 10 hours of office time to each survey.
And when those 4 hours have passed right, wrong, or somewhere in between that survey is issued. 4 hours is barely time enough to draft a simple survey so you can imagine how much time is spent on analysis.
Many people I know blame the decline in the interest in becoming a Surveyor on the increase in GIS. They believe that all land transactions in the future will be done referencing these GIS systems. This may happen for a while, I’ve already seen it done. After there is a big enough mess, say in 10 years, there will be an even greater need for Surveyors to start to straighten things out. Maybe then there will be a raise in the value of out time. Luck to all

Allen

 

[HBS]

Let me reply regarding the lack of surveyors. The profession is unstable,which means you will be unemployed by the time your project is completed,drive time can take hours,employers cut back on the size of the survey party , which means safety issues are being compromise for profits. There are more and more irresponsible drivers with telephones in there hands and road rage is rampant. We are force to work long hours because the job is so far away. We are not given a break after every 2 hours which is a state law. Some times not even a lunch break. We are to be paid overtime for anything over 8 hours, that includes travel time,but employers pay us straight time instead. Majority of Eng. or Surveying don't offer benefits. You have to beg and beg for a pay raise. The chainman is usually doing most of the physical work when it should be shared with the party chief. Most of the companies I've work for try to cheat you on your pay . I've been trying to get out of surveying but I'm now type cast and its hard for me to get into another profession unless I go back to school. I have more and more to say but I have to look for job, I got laid off, again.

 

[Smacin]

I have felt the GIS/Survey impact greatly over recent years. I work in a company that is currently trying to expand its surveying/gps capability... yet its proving extremely difficult due to the increase in GIS use.

 

[HermChwa]

Smacin,

Exactly what do you mean by:

&quot;its proving extremely difficult due to the increase in GIS use&quot;?

My company, too, has just spent AUD80K last month on new GPS equipment. Surveying itself is already a dying profession, what u just said sounds scary!

I have 15 years of surveying experience after getting my degree. 8 years ago I completed a post-graduate diploma in Computer Science because I wanted to change my career. But in the end couldn't afford financially to start in IT from scratch. Now i'm really feeling the negative impact on me. Too late to regret now. :-(

My salary now is probably less than some secretaries, and I'm not kidding!

So to those who are thinking of starting a career in Surveying, don't. And those who'd just got in, make your decision asap.

 

[Smacin]

HermChwa...

Its my recent experiences.

I dont think surveying will be taken to an early death by GIS, but I do think the way forward is a combination of both.

Although its proving difficult to expand when GIS is the new thing clients want, surveying has a future.

This future, i think, will be GIS surveyors.

 

[beelzebub]

my company, well, the company i work for has branched out offering in house GIS as a part of our package. this should be great for the employers not so for me.

i believe as do many people i know that surveyors are a dying breed and with the future looking GIS friendly there will be the licensed surveyor in the office running things and the untrained underpaid field monkey out collecting data.

i am in the process of looking at starting the licensing procedure purely so i can have a future.

 

[HermChwa]

I've just finished a meeting with my employers, they're asking me whether I want to sign up for the training agreement.

Still don't know whether I'll go ahead with it. Just wondering what do you get apart from being an LS and be able to put your signature on plans and drawings a couple of thousand dollar increment perhaps?

 

[beelzebub]

from where i sit, you get a) a little more money b) more responsibilty/accountability c) become more employable (i figure if anyones going to get sacked if times get lean it wont be their licensed surveyor- i know that at the moment you cant find qualified surveyors at the moment. i just heard today we have an ex employee coming back who left in disgrace not to long ago. thats how desperate they are.

 

[jheidt2543]

HermChwa,

Go for the license! Yes, you get a little more pay, you get to sign and seal documents, you get more responsibility and the possibility of being sued - BUT you also get the personal satisfaction of being licensed! You have the &quot;red badge of courage&quot;! It proves your dedication to your job and that you take seriously your responsibilty to your profession. You will also find that people will take you more seriously.

Yes, that may sound a little outdated, but when you get to the end of your career and look back on your accomplishments, it WILL mean something. Who knows, maybe someday you will want to start your own office. You never know where life will lead. I still think the Boy Scouts have the best motto, &quot;Be Prepared&quot;.

 

[RDK]

I’m an engineer involved in construction and who does some surveying to support construction activities.

When I was a student (mid 70’s) I had several summer jobs that involved survey work. At that time I was using equipment and methods that a surveyor 100 years ago would have understood and quickly been able to adopt.

The equipment was basically the same, the main differences were that my transit had better optics and was capable of reading to a closer tolerance. The metal tape had replaced the old chains but would have been quickly understood by my professional forbearers.

The methods of analysis and using the data were basically the same. To close a traverse I would have a pencil and paper spreadsheet and do all the calculations by hand, getting some error of closure that was either acceptable or not. The biggest difference between what I did in 1975 and the way things were done in 1875 was that I might have used a 4 function calculator for the arithmetic, I would have still looked up the trig functions in tables.

Now with total stations electronic distance measurement, GPS and other new technologies, surveying has radically changed. Tasks that took days under the old methods can now be done before lunch. Measurements that involved reading a metal tape to the nearest 5 mm now are done electronically and displayed to the nearest 1 mm or 0.1 mm.

I feel that there is an over reliance on the technology with little real understanding of the underlying principles involved. The belief is that the technology cannot make a mistake so the answer, whatever it is, has to be right.

The technology cannot make a mistake but the operators sure can. An inaccurately setup instrument or one poorly operated will produce garbage results. It will however produce garbage results to a high degree of precision that will foster a belief that the measurement is exact so therefore it mist be accurate.

Very similar problems exist in other branches of engineering and the technical professions. Technology and an over reliance on it has drastically changed the nature of our professions.


The end result is that because it can be easy to produce accurate technical work, anyone can do it. All it takes is reading the input prompts on the computer program and putting in the right information. No real skill is involved so people with no real understanding can do it and do it for lower costs.

This means that people do not check their traverses and make sure that they close in the field. They will do a large traverse and leave it open at the end where we would have done smaller closed traverses and checked each one at the time. There is no sanity check at the end of the job.

When you couple this technology trend with the educational system focusing on a student’s self esteem rather than on capabilities you get junior technical people who believe that they cannot make a mistake and are using technology that cannot make mistakes and therefore there is no need for checking or otherwise admitting that there is any possibility of error.

This summer I was working on a small residential sub division. I had set the grades for the roads and sewers and as a favour to the developer had set house lot grades. The local municipal surveyor came on site late in the day on the day before the foundation concrete was to be poured. He, in spite of the fact that the roads were in and the elevations looked to be within normal designs, simply took one open vertical traverse shot, announced that the house footing was 1 m to high and that it would have to be changed before the contractor could proceed. (The delay would have cost the builder a couple of weeks because the concrete crews were that booked up.)

Of course what happened was that his rod man had held the rod in the wrong place for the back sight. What astounded me was that he would not admit that there was any possibility of an error on his part or that he had any responsibility for the problem or that he had any responsibility to at least do a sanity check on his work or for the actions of his rod man. Even after this he came back on site and rechecked the work without closing the traverse.






Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com