There are plenty of Engineers on the way 14

[BobPE]

I pulled this excerpt fron the NSPE web site...I thought it would make for interesting discussion here...


Some Members of Congress are seeking to attach a provision at the last minute to the must-pass bill designed to fund the federal government for the rest of this fiscal year. This provision would exempt up to 20,000 aliens holding a master's or higher degree from the current 65,000 cap on H-1B Visas for non-immigrants in any fiscal year. H-1B visas allow temporary employment by aliens in specialty occupations such as engineering. These programs have been used to displace higher-paid U.S. workers and replace them with lower-paid, often less-qualified, foreign temporary workers. NSPE supports keeping the current cap of 65,000 H-1B visas.

Please call your state's Senators and your Representative immediately and ask them to oppose raising the current cap on H-1B Visas.
Your message is simple:

Keep the cap on H-1B workers at the current level of 65,000 per-year.
This proposal to raise the cap has not been voted on by either the House or Senate this session. This issue is too complex to be added to the budget bill at the last minute without being vetted in congressional hearings.
The H-1B program has been abused in the past and this proposal would cost the jobs of U.S. engineers and scientists.
NSPE supports the use of Professional Engineers who are licensed and trained in our ethical practices. In NSPE's view, these visa programs decrease the use of PEs and allow engineers who are not trained in U.S. ethical practices to perform engineering services, which is detrimental to the public health, safety, and welfare.




Again, I copied the above from NSPE's web site...I am writing my congressmen...what does everyone else think?

BobPE

 

[EddyC]

I guess that this is the result of a profession where only a small minority of the workforce is required to be licensed.

 

[BobPE]

EddyC:

H -1B's can get licensed, there is nothing stopping them....

 

[Rich2001]

I contacted my congressmen this morning. I also, contacted the goverenor and the new governor elect to see if they would also contact the congressmen.

All US engineers should be concerned not only PEs.

 

[EddyC]

If ALL engineers (& others who do engineering) were required to be licensed, people could not simply be imported and have engineering duties (& titles) lorded over to them by companies. Everyone would have to graduate from a recognized school, obtain suitable experience and pass the FE & PE exams. The way it is now, with some small legal exceptions, anyone can be an engineer as long as they can find a company that is willing to have them. The companies are free to decide for themselves who is an engineer.

 

[BobPE]

EddyC:

You make good points....It seems from my knowledge of the H-1B program that many of the "engineers" enter industry or the "engineering" fields of the computer industry, where, you are right, anyone can be an "engineer." Considering this, it does seem to make sense that the PE becomes a tool to have a level playing field for engineers (not quotations) to practice. We know, through this site, the disdane for PE's by many in the industry. It comes down to a fine point in my mind, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink...well why shouldn't we enforce standards that determine who can be at the trough?? If we don't it will surely run dry...meaning we will be looking at 2 to 10 dollars an hour to compete...I am all for competation, don't get me wrong, but the service I provide as an engineer, no one else but an engineer can provide...This has inherent value, value that cannot be provided for those wages..

BobPE

 

[EddyC]

The problem isn't just in "Industry". Its also in the Consulting side of engineering. Plenty of people are allowed to do engineering as long as they are employed/supervised by a PE. My father is a doctor who was educated overseas before he immigrated to the US. In order to practice as a doctor, he was forced to work under the supervision of a US licensed MD until he could be allowed to take the doctors license exam. He was told up front that he would not be allowed to practice as an MD indefinitely without passing the license exam. His job was contingent on obtaining his license in a finite amount of time. Now take a look at engineering in contrast. I work for a Consulting company. We have numerous individuals who have been doing engineering for most of their adult lives. They are not licensed nor have they even taken or applied to take the PE exam. As you can see, this makes engineering quite different than medicine or law, with respect to licensing.

 

[Rich2001]

Copied from the Hindu Times

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/5922_1116045,0015002000000000.htm[/URL]]

20,000 more H-1B visas, cap remains
S. Rajagopalan
Washington, November 21

Here's some good news for H-1B visa seekers. The US Congress has just cleared a legislative measure throwing up an additional 20,000 of these coveted work visas.

But there is one important caveat. The new visas will be reserved for foreign students passing out of American universities with master's or doctorate degrees.

Also, the annual cap will remain at 65,000. The proposed H-1B visas for up to 20,000 eligible foreign students will be treated as an exemption from the cap.

The measure, preceded by months of hectic lobbying by US industry and staunch opposition by labour groups, could benefit several thousand Indians who are either waiting in American campuses or back at home.

Many of them had earlier lost out because the competition was so intense that the slashed annual quota of 65,000 H-1B visas was snapped up on day one of the new American fiscal year on October 1.

The new measure is a part of the $ 388 billion Omnibus Appropriations Bill that was passed by Congress late on Saturday night.

The US's technology industry and immigration groups have been seeking a revision of the H-1B cap ever since it was slashed from 195,000 visas a year to 65,000 from October 2003.

I can not find anything in the US press about this. Is congress ashamed to admit that they will be putting more US engineers and scientists out of work or under employed? The current is is flawed. adding this provison on to a $388 billion omnibus Bill at the last minute without being vetted in congressional hearings is wrong.

 

[BobPE]

I see your point EddyC, but I would disagree, there are numerous technicians and aids for both lawyers and doctors, all of which contribute to the decisions made by the licensed doctor or lawyer, and many of these people have no desire to be a lawyer or doctor..If any of these people practiced law or midicine, they would be punished under the law.... The same is true for engineering as you pointed out. I am in consulting too, and we are limited to the amount of work we can do by the number of PE's that we have. Often times we do multiple projects for one client and we just do not have the PE's to serve as project engineer/manager, and the clients point this out as they are usually quite knowledgable about how they want their project teams constructed. Now that said, if we could get H-1B PE's, make no mistake, we would...and would offer lower salaries....but that is business and taking advantage of the system put in place means increased margins...Now the salaries of these H-1B engineers would be lower, but the credentials they would have would naturally increase their value and I would expect their salaries will rise as well over a short period of time...

I can't see the same picture for industry...a flood of H-1B "engineers" would hurt the engineers that practice in indusrty...I can't see the value of this from the engineering prespective, but I guess I can from the accounting point of view....It just seems like a lousy way to run a profession....Without the benchmark of a PE, there would be no mechanism to elevate salaries.

this is a good conversation...I was hoping it would get some play....

BobPE

 

[GregLocock]

Well Rich2001, OK, this is what I want you to do. Write to your congressman and get him to eliminate these HB1s.

I will then offer them jobs in my country, and your companies will hire us to do the job that the HB1s would have done anyway. It will mostly be done by the HB1 guys you didn't want to hire directly.

This is not a joke, we are short of engineers, and at least half our engineering is done for export.

Whilst I wish we had an engineering trades union with teeth, so that only people I like can be engineers, it does not really seem to solve the real, whole world, issues.


Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[GregLocock]

Oh, and obviously I meant H-1B not HB1.

 

[Tobalcane]

<<< This provision would exempt up to 20,000 aliens holding a master's or higher degree…>>>

My perception is that when these politicians do a study of how many engineers will be needed in the work force they will look at the number of engineers graduating and the engineers with their degrees in the work force. They are not taking in account the number of non-degree engineers into their study. From the view of engineers graduating from ABET colleges, this rate is starting to slow down, hence the argument that we are starting to dwindle in the number of degreed engineers in this country (USA). I feel that this is the reason why the politicians are making provisions to let people in with their master’s degree or higher.


Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

 

[Rich2001]

Was there a study done and debated in congress? - No! I would not have a problem if a careful and critical review was done in congressional hearings, but it was not. This provision was added to the must pass Omnibus Bill. These issue to too complex not to have open congressional hearings!

The current H-1B visa program allows American companies and universities to import foreign scientists, engineers and programmers. Without serious safeguards to protect American workers from being replaced and is abused to provide cheap foreign labor.

H-1B workers continue to flood a terrible job market. During 2001 and 2002, 799,100 H-1B visas were issued and renewed despite a 6 percent national unemployment and 8 percent in Silicon Valley, up to 18% in the Ohio Valley. Many highly trained Americans engineers and scientists remain unemployed or underemployeed.

Congress needs to increase domestic worker safeguards, significantly reduce the number of H-1B visas issued, and crackdown on visa violations and fraud.

 

[Rich2001]

We can disagree about the wisdom of these changes, but US citizens should all agree on is that such sweeping changes to immigration law should not be made though a deceiving procedural move designed to avoid public scrutiny.

 

[GregLocock]

I agree, and thinking about it 20000 engineers is a very big number, in comparison with the size of the industry as a whole. I think you are right to think that Congress has failed you and other engineers.

None the less, how do your companies cope with having to employ more expensive USAn engineers, when the rest of the world pays its engineers less? This must have an effect on product development costs, and hence the profitability of manufacturing. To give an example, a typical car has about 2000 dollars of product development in it. If your engineers (and so on) cost 20% more, then that is going to be probably 2300 dollars, that is a 300 dollar penalty. The way the car market is that may well represent the total profit to the manufacturer.

So, if you won't accept wages in line with those of the rest of the world, and you won't let cheaper engineers into the country, then the domestic manufacturing industry either offshores its PD work, or packs up, or demands government subsidies.







Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[EddyC]

Greg,

If all things were equal, you're right. But here's another take on it:

My current employer has quite a few foreign (non-USA) nationals in his employ. They are indeed willing to work for less pay than USA born & educated engineers. Their productivity, however, is far less than domestic engineers, basically washing out the cost savings of their lower salaries. Many of my colleagues question the wisdom of utilizing these individuals to perform engineering.

 

[davefitz]

This immigration measure is a good example of how our system of "market democracy" works.

a) engineers do not have an organization that will accumulate funds to finance a lobbying effort to persuade legislators. ( If you think writing to a congressman will influence their vote, then I have a got a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn).

b)industries that do wish to lower their cost of engineers do have effective lobbying organizations, and some individual industries are large enough such that they can affort to lobby independently of other organizations.

c) Most congressman and senators must finance their reelection campaigns using monies from lobbyests- they are dependent on this source of funds. The rationale for aligning their votes to be consistent with the opinions of their financiers doesn't need to be too sophisticated- its the system, dummy.

 

[GregLocock]

EddyC, for every underperforming foreign born engineer I can find you a USA born one.

I have occasionally challenged people to find objective evidence showing a variation in engineering productivity with nationality, no one has managed so far. But if I were to set up an engineering bucket-shop it would have a lot of Russians in it, to reveal my own prejudices. I think Boeing had the same idea.




Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[flamby]

H1B is a hot item here in India and you can imagine the craze that the cap for the whole year was just exhausted on the first day (1 October). Many of H1Bs are talented professionals and if somebody thinks that these can't get PEs in their course, please get realistic.

And all this is fuelled by a single factor - high salaries in USA. Not just USA, migration to Europe, Canada, Aus.-NZ is along similar trend but for odd reasons I haven't heard them complaining?

 

[flamby]

"I will then offer them jobs in my country..."

Well, thats already happening.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/934816.cms