Titanium Used to Replace Steel

[jimgineer]

I was recently browsing some investment sites and they were discussing titanium outlook in terms of the market. One person suggested that because of titanium being outstanding in terms of its strength to weight ratio, and depending on the cost of fuel, it might be looked at as a viable alternative to other forms of metals because of reduced fuel consumption for lighter vehicles.

I was hoping a few of you in the know a bit more could look at this a little bit more definitively to see if this stacks up to a basic engineering feasibility test. I'm sure that there's a point where fuel might reach in terms of price where the added cost of the titanium might be offset by the slightly reduced cost in fuel to power the vehicle, I just don't know how much steel goes into a car or other vehicle, and etc.

I think you guys get the idea.

Is titanium the wave of the future in the automotive industry?

 

[patprimmer]

Plastic has already extensively replaced steel in an effort to decrease weight. It has been an ongoing quest for probably 30 years and will continue.

Titanium may occasionally find a place, but the cost and other poor properties will severely limit its application, unless it gets a lot cheaper or steel gets a lot dearer.

Regards

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[CoryPad]

The cost of titanium is still more than 10 times the cost of steel, so direct substitutions aren't likely any time soon.

There are cases where titanium's properties are a great fit (e.g. springs) and could allow quicker usage.

If 0.5 kg of titanium were used on every vehicle, it would require more titanium than all existing ones combined. This is why there is a large desire to tap the automotive market.

Regards,

Cory

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[SonyAD]

I'd look at Duralumin far sooner than I'd look at Titanium.

I believe there are far better applications for Titanium than this.

 

[GregLocock]

Much, if not most, of a car is actually stiffness constrained, not strength constrained. That is, if it is stiff enough then it is strong enough. There are a few exceptions to this so we use high strength steels in those applications.

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[SomptingGuy]

Magnesium is the fashionable light-weight metal for motorcycle applications. I would not want to be part of a magnesium fire though!

- Steve

 

[carnage1]

We need magnesium car bodies, imagine the cool movie car chase scenes when someone gets run into a guard rail and the sparks ignite the car. now that is entertainment

 

[TVP]

The amount of heat/energy that would be needed to ignite fabricated magnesium parts (transmission housings, engine brackets, entire bodies, etc.) would be so huge that the plastic components would all be melted far sooner. About 50% of fuel tanks in North America are blow molded out of plastic...

 

[jimgineer]

I recently read that the company Titanium Metals Co. is looking to profit from the increased cost of titanium. This seems so backwards. Sure, a company that mines gold for example would stand to profit from increased profits, but judging from all these comments, titanium is going to be pretty elastic (economically) for many applications. That is, it needs to decrease its price enough to reach a point where it will be used more. Any economics theorists care to opine??? I would love to learn more about commodities like this where currently there are a few specialized applications.

 

[CoryPad]

The entire metals world is in a huge cost upheaval. Steel and its input ingredients (petroleum, iron ore, coke, nickel, chromium, molybdenum, etc.) are all priced at historic high levels. The market is now such that the supply-demand relationship is unbalanced with high demand and restricted supply. Raw materials suppliers are enjoying high profits from high prices.

Titanium producers are looking to profit from high prices because the majority user(s) are aerospace/commerical aircraft, and there is a boom in this market. These traditional customers will pay the high prices to obtain the material now to use for their designs. Automotive usage of titanium is not a reality due to the lower cost of the vehicles and the lower premium placed on fuel efficiency.

Titanium is produced by batch processing that is essentially unchanged over the last 50 years. It is low volume and high cost. Titanium has interesting properties (like high oxygen affinity, hexagonal crystal structure) that make it more challenging (and more costly) to produce. Reducing the cost by a factor of ten to compete with steel, aluminum, and polymers in the automotive market is a "game changer", "killer app" or "economic shock" that will be difficult to produce.

Regards,

Cory

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[Rob45]

SomptingGuy noted the fire hazard with magnesium car bodies;
that's why Dan Gurney's American Eagle F1 car didn't have seatbelts, believe it or not!
He had a real fear of dying in a fire.

 

[MikeHalloran]

That's the other problem with titanium: manufacturing housekeeping has to be a super high priority. Titanium fines, notably grinder swarf but also chips from finish machining, are easy to ignite, burn with ferocity, and don't behave nicely with common firefighting procedures.

See MSDS:

http://www.espi-metals.com/msds's/titanium.pdf

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[DKirkham]

Titanium is a wonderful material...if you can afford it and deal with its headaches.

There are immense problems with titanium in a production car setting.

Titanium galls so you can't use it in sliding applications.

Titanium is expensive...like $65/pound (last summer, haven't looked lately). Steel is under $1/pound so titanium is immediately eliminated from most equations.

Titanium is extremely difficult to form=expensive to form.

Titanium is difficult to weld=expensive to weld.

Titanium is very hard to even purchase. Last summer Boeing was waiting over a year to have plate made.

I doubt you will see much titanium on production cars in the near future unless its price comes way, way, way down.

As for the magnesium comments:

A very well known crew chief I knew once said, if the fire is hot enough to start the wheels on fire then the driver had better long be out of the car. Mag chips and fines burn but solid blocks are extremely difficult to light on fire. It is a non-issue.

I think mag, aluminum, and plastic have a far brighter future in automobiles than titanium.

http://www.kirkhammotorsports.com