Too Much Info Requested to Apply 4

[YoungTurk]

I've recently been doing some passive job searching. Basically just testing the waters as the job market comes back to life.

Here's the question - for one company I'm interested in the online application process requires you fill in a "profile" before you can apply to a job. The profile requires information, and LOTS of it. And its REQUIRED. In addition to the somewhat standard stuff like criminal history, it asks for lots of career information. The kind of stuff I would consider giving out AFTER someone spoke to me about interest in a specific position. Like: How much do you make? How much did you make at your last job? Why did you leave there? Give us your references, at least three.

I'm not in need of a new job, so I'm turned off enough to not apply. I recall seeing something like this when I applied to some of the big boys after graduation some years ago. Thought it was odd then.

But now that I have an actual career to discuss (and protect), I'm wondering if this is acceptable, or even standard?

 

[MikeHalloran]

Most of the online 'resume generators' are similarly intrusive.

Worse, virtually all of them manage to hammer your illustrious career into a dingy lump that looks exactly like everyone else's dingy lump of a career. They leave no way for you to differentiate your 'brand' from anyone else's, e.g. by making it impossible to simply submit the resume you have prepared at considerable expense in time.

I'm conjecturing that it's similarly impossible for the hiring managers inside these enlightened companies to differentiate one candidate from any other, using the tools and information provided them. So I further conjecture that they're basically hiring at random from the pool of dingy lumps, and hoping to clean up each lump in turn and find a gem. Which explains why those enlightened companies are _always_ hiring, for the same jobs.

Which is why I've pretty much given up on any company that uses a third party resume generator/ screening service; they're all basically doomed. Maybe you could reach a hiring manager by social networking, but the company is still doomed.





Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[JohnRBaker]

What's normal and acceptable changes over time, often based on trends but sometimes due to laws and regulations.

When I was in Engineering school, back in the 60's, employers could still ask about an applicant's race, religion and ethnicity, but the Federal government soon put a stop to that. They could even ask for your 'draft' and/or military status (Vietnam was going full tilt at the time). Then suddenly they started asking for a 'passport' type photo be attached, which again only lasted maybe a year or so. I remember because during my last couple of years I was in charge of the ME-EM (Mechanical Engineering-Engineering Mechanics) department darkroom and got maybe two dozen or so requests to take and develop photos for guys submitting job applications but who couldn't afford going downtown and having them taken professionally.

I know for awhile, there were even some suggestions by some faculty members and administrators that student applications for an initial interview not even be required to include your name or gender as there was a fear that people were being 'profiled' before they even got a chance to talk to an on-campus recruiter, but then that was the 60's and lot of s##t was going down about then, things were changing and a lot of OLD habits were dying, albeit not so easily in some places as others.

I was lucky, I had co-oped for 4 years so I had a firm offer waiting for me since I had already proved myself to my future employer and I stayed with them another 14 years before I made the move which led to my current situation here on the Left-Coast.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA

http://www.siemens.com/plm

http://www.plmworld.org/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[KENAT]

YoungTurk, at the end of the day, it's up to you whether you apply or not.

Except for some things protected by law they can ask most things.

If you want the job, you answer, if it doesn't mean that much to you, move on.

This said, I share Mikes frustration. At least some places have routes around this, I got a phone interview with such a place just a few weeks ago.

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[micalbrch]

Young Turk: KENAT is right. What do you feel about this questionaire? Is it o.k. for you? You are not under pressure. If you don't feel good, it will not be the company you want to work with. That's it.

 

[MintJulep]

That type of information is being collected because it feeds the various "salary surveys" or salary comparison sites/databases.

Either the company is contracting out the web application and screening process, or they are collecting the information because they can sell it to the comparison sites.

 

[ewh]

I would handle the electronic form the same way I would a hard copy; I only put the information that I am willing to share without knowing if the company would be further interested in hiring me. Salary history is one of those pieces of information; as soon as they know that, you have lost a valuable bargaining tool. If the site won't accept blank spaces, I would put in something just to fill the blank ($0.00). Same with why I left my last position and references. I have never had a problem with-holding this type of information in the past, and would have to be fairly desperate for employment to give it in the future without at least one face-to-face meeting.

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - [small]Robert Hunter[/small]

 

[CarbonRod]

I've run into sites that ask you for previous salaries as well and think it's absolutely beyond the pale. You could always fill in $0 or $999999 but then I'm sure your application would be screened out by the HR trolls. I have a feeling that any company that would act in this manner wouldn't be a good place to work.

 

[oneintheeye]

the problem I see is that only the desperate will bother going through all that (to probably have to do it all again later) which means yhe company wont ge the best but only the most desperate. But it gives HR something to do, and a means of justifying their ever increasing salaries and power

 

[YoungTurk]

Well, the email I got when I started the profile states that they hire only the best and brightests....

The reason I ask, aside from comparing opinions, is that I'm on the fence as to whether to skip applying for this reason alone. Certainly the experience gives a bad impression to potential applicants such as myself, but how does one determine whether its a case of HR run amok in an otherwise good company - or a company run by HR. If its an engineering company run by HR, then I can't imagine wanting to work there. But then, I'm aware of unpleasant HR experiences at some otherwise great companies.

I initially took pause at the salary questions, thinking "well, either I lie and start off on the wrong foot or tell the truth and start out on the short end of the stick", but forged on. When I got to the references, though, I stopped cold. I haven't been working for so long that I have a huge list of great references, and assuming I don't want to use any from my current employer since I'm likely to stay here, I have a quandry.

I think I'll take the tack of passivating the web form with some filler text; I've got nothing to lose.

And truly, if they're using the salary data collected this way for the salary websites I have even less faith in those fly traps now!

 

[Twoballcane]

I think the reason for all of the upfront info is to separate the fence sitters and serious job seekers. They do not have time with people who are just there to kick the tires. Are you in or out? If you are not move on.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

 

[MikeHalloran]

Well, I'm not sitting on a fence.
I'm trying to get in, honest.
So far today, I've pissed away two hours trying to get into L-3/Linkabit, and I'm still not done.

First I had to find the job, and drill down through all the HTML references and doppelgangers, something like this:
LinkedIn>SimplyHired>JobsInsider>Climber.com>l-3com.com.

I may not get spam, but I'll probably get 'newsletters' from each of those hollow sites that doesn't actually have jobs to offer, because I had to register and give a valid email address just to get to the next level of indirection.

Now I'm dealing with the employer's stupid custom resume builder, "powered by Taleo". I've gone through this exercise with other outfits that also use Taleo, but my info, if cached by Taleo, is not shareable, so I had to fill in some stuff again.

Which would be easier if the content checking function didn't throw away half of what you've filled in, and if the pages as first presented actually contained all the boxes to be presented. First I got an error for not using the dropdown box to list my country... a box that did not appear until after the error dialog box. Then I got an error for not using the dropdown box to select my state.... a box that did not appear until after the error dialog box. Then I got an error for not using the dropdown box to select my city.... a box that did not appear until after the error dialog box came up. I guess the programmer didn't feel like adding another layer of delay by asking for my county or voting district...

<tangent>: My take is that calling a website composer a programmer is an egregious misapplication of the word.
HTML and its offspring were invented by people who didn't know squat about language so that people who didn't know squat about computers or programming could manage to make computers do something amusing, or possibly interesting.
We are now seeing the predictable results.
</tangent>

Then I had to upload my resume. Which just barely exceeds the site's size limit of 100kb in Word format, so I uploaded a .txt file.

Which Taleo parsed, horribly, so now I'm trying to edit the work history that it built from random bits and pieces of the resume, where it got everything wrong. Its internal editor for this purpose is framed within a window that's smaller than the editor's field, which I'm sure is a very clever piece of xTML "programming", but a horrid piece of interface engineering.

Never mind. I'm going to lunch. Maybe I'll continue the process afterward, if none of the computers involved have crashed by then....




Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[KENAT]

Mike, I feel your pain. Many of the Defense contractors and the related govt jobs have similar websites.

I'll spend most of a Friday off and manage to apply to maybe a couple such places. Then my wife questions why I've applied to so few places...

Anyway, star for your rant, 'cause I feel your pain.

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[YoungTurk]

Yeah, Mike is saying it better than I can.

Twoballcane- Why is it "they" should be afforded every opportunity of inquest and torture while I have to decide "in or out" based on a HR dribble job post that doesn't give actual specific job duties, salary range, relocation packages, bonus packages, benefits, work environment, etc etc etc.

I suppose you might answer thats its because "they" have the job. Well, I've got the skills. It takes two to tango and they start by kicking you in the shin!

 

[MikeHalloran]

Update: Elapsed time to apply for one job, through Taleo:
FIVE HOURS.
After the earlier adventure noted above, I came back, and used Taleo's brain- damaged editor to correct what its resume parser had screwed up from my last three jobs. Took about an hour, what with pulldown boxes to select stuff that I eventually had to type in anyway.
Then I hit some acknowledgement pages, and got to a page where I was apparently searching for jobs through Taleo, and it had found four others in addition to the one that I had started out to apply for. So I checked that one, please apply to that one, etc., and got to go through the exact same exercise of correcting what Taleo's resume parser had screwed up, etc..

Eventually I got an acknowledgement page that my application had been submitted.

God only knows what it will look like on the Decision Maker's desk, if it ever finds its way there.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[KENAT]

YoungTurk, at the end of the day, especially in this economy they may think they have the upper hand.

When places get a bit more desparate, is when they are willing to work around the online torture devices.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

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(probably not aimed specifically at you)
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[ScottyUK]

Mike,

I share your pain. The Taleo resume mangler is awful. I've even used 'resume' instead of 'CV' out of sympathy for your plight.


----------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[Twoballcane]

Young Turk, HR (they) people get hundreds and hundreds of resumes. If you don’t play by their games, you get dropped. For all those who did include the info HR seeks may pass to the next step of somebody actually looking at their info. While your huffing and puffing (or ranting on Eng-Tips) the ones who are playing by the rules are passing you by.

Just like in the days of sending your resume to the company. If it is something they don’t like or the lack of what they do like, it goes into the round file in one fell swoop. I have worked at job fairs for my past and current company and I can tell you, each evening the Talent Accusation (TA) people sit in a hotel room with stacks of resumes. They would have certain stacks for jobs to fill and one big waste basket in the middle of the room. The TA would scan thru a hundred resumes and would be done in five minutes. And, only 5% of the resumes would reach the job stacks, the rest go into the trash bin.

Mike, you sound like a serious job hunter, I can only say that if in any way you can meet a representative at a job fair, open house, or networking, to highlight your online resume so that it does not fall into the cyber black hole. Good Luck!!




Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

 

[Noway2]

MikeHalloran, I feel your pain man. I once, .... once .... filled out a job application on a Taleo site. Spent several hours fixing everything that it flubbed up. Created passwords, went through the email back and forth, uploaded a resume, reformatted and fixed everything, and so forth.

Net result, the company didn't even call. Several months later I get contacted by a head hunter who insisted that I was perfect for the (same) position - everything that they were looking for. For some reason they claimed that as I had applied via the taleo site and was rejected(?) that they wouldn't even consider re-looking at my application. The recruiter took this to the head honcho of their firm who also approached the company with a WTF? Couldn't even get a reason out of them.

Several months later, they were still posting for the same position, but now with a different recruiting firm.

I hate filling out those on-line application forms.

I did fill out one and did get contacted by the company, back in Sept. Went through 11 hours of interview, 3 on the phone and 8 in person. Got a call the next day and was told, "we have decided to keep looking". Wouldn't tell me what was wrong. Two days later, I saw the job posting again. This time with an offered salary range. I told them what I was making and what I was expecting. The amount they were offering was unbelievably below what I was willing to accept. A few weeks ago, I got an automated email from the parent holding company stating that the requisition for this position has been terminated due to an inability to fill the position and encouraging me to apply for other positions.

 

[GregLocock]

" This time with an offered salary range. I told them what I was making and what I was expecting. The amount they were offering was unbelievably below what I was willing to accept."

So walk away. They don't owe you an acceptable offer. Don't blub if they don't offer it.


Cheers

Greg Locock


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