Transfer of licenses 4

[RDK]

I recently went on a car trip. I crossed several provincial and state boarders and the US Canada boarder. In making this trip I had only my home province drivers license. Since the purpose of having a drivers license is to regulate the practice of driving just as the purpose of licensing engineers is to regulate the practice of engineering, why do I need separate licenses in every state and province that I wish to work?

The associations say that every jurisdiction has different rules and practices. To use my driver’s analogy so does each province have different rules. Some places allow right turns on red lights others do not. It is up to each individual driver to know and follow the local rules of the road. Why cannot it be up to each professional to know and follow local rules?

Some say that discipline cannot have cross-jurisdictional enforcement. I do not believe this since as an engineer with two licenses I have been told that discipline in one jurisdiction will be enforced by the other. If I had gotten a speeding ticket on my trip, it would count as demerits on my home license.

Personally I think that it’s an economic issue. Tough license requirements keep out the competition. This is not why engineering is a self-regulating profession. If my home province gives me a license then other jurisdictions should allow me to practice. If I practice incompetently then they can discipline me in the normal manner. Just like if I am driving improperly then another jurisdiction can charge me and suspend my license which is honoured by my home province.

Any comments? I would especially like to hear from the associations if possible.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[ludvik]

Yeah, its an interesting point. It does seem kinda parochial if not even a little dumb that you need a special license for each state.

Though I'm sure each state makes an argument that they have special requirements...the Wisconsans don't think the Floridians know about snow, the Floridians don't think the Wisconsans know about hurricanes, the Californians don't think anyone else knows about earthquakes, ...etc etc.

These arguments are of course invalid because the means of getting a license is pretty much generic between states. Furthermore, other countries where the environment between regions is even more diverse have uniform licensing requirements.

Projects are now frequently completed on a global basis with consultants and contractors drawn from all parts of the world. But they still make it difficult for a New York engineer cross the George Washington Bridge and work in New Jersey.

I am not close enough to the heirarchy of the licensing boards to be privy to their thinking on the matter. Maybe you are right RDK when you say it is a economic protectionist thing. Maybe it is a matter of the local warlords maintaining control of their fiefdom. Maybe there is someone out there who can shed some light.

ml

 

[brad]

RDK: Money, it's always about money! Every state wants their share.

Although I do believe that it boils down to that, I will play devil's advocate regarding your car analogy:

Although the car license allows me to drive across borders, if I am incompetent I can only do SO MUCH damage (a bus full of people is only, what 60 or so?). On the other hand, if I am incompetent and an engineer, I can wipe out hundreds with one poorly-designed building.

It is noteworthy that truckers have a higher threshold to pass, and truckers hauling hazardous materials do also (although I understand the threshold is not THAT high).

I think it's really greedy state governments, but this is probably how they justify it.

Brad

 

[ludvik]

I don't get the money argument though...

Back in the day, consulting engineering firms used to be small and local, and under such circumstances I can understand that a New Jersey engineer would want to stop the barbarian hords from NY crossing the George Washington Bridge. But now firms are bigger and seek work on a national if not international basis.

My firm specializes in lift bridges and could never survive by working in its home state alone. My firm has only around 250 people. I can't exactly see the mammoth firms like Parsons Brinkerhoff and Bechtel down at the licensing board lobbying for the preservation of localized licensing.

ml

 

[Rich2001]

I believe that this is a throw back to the 1930's when each state had their own exams and requirements. Getting any state legislature to change their rules, if it does not impact them directly, is like dragging an elephant with a leash for a chihuahua, it can be done but very slowly and carefully.

I do grant that today each state uses the same NCEES exams for FE (EIT) and PP (PE) exams, but I am not sure that there is a universal acceptance of the SE exams. In addition several state have addition requirements for PE registration, for example Alaska requires a Arctic Engineering course from their approved list.

The closes that we have for a national engineer license is the NCEES - Model Engineer. Through after certification you still must apply to each state individually, but registration is generally quicker and paperwork is reduced. However, there is still probelms, for example Texas will not accept the references unless the references comply to their rules and laws.

 

[Hush]

I believe Rich2001 has a good chunk of the answer in that the answer lies not so much with the engineering associations as with the legislatures. Since almost every scope of engineering invariably involves safety of the public, almost all fields of engineering have legislative requirements that are dictated at the provincial/state level or even at the municiple level. A knowledge of the legislative requirements for your particular field specific to that location is required to practice, this is part of the reasoning behind the period of internship prior to becoming a professional. As an example, every jurisdiction in Canada and the US references ASME for pressure vessel design but every jurisdiction defines what it applies to differently and has its own pressure vessel certification organization.

A second reason might be that all legislation is intended to stand the test of time. No legislature will willingly give blanket accreditation to engineers accredited by another jurisdiction over which they have no control, for fear that at some future date they may have to change the legislation to remove that accreditation.

 

[ludvik]

If indeed it is a problem of state legislatures wanting to hold onto their control of licensing, I imagine there is little or no chance of that power ever being ceeded to a federal authority or any other kind of central control. This is the kind of thing which politicians and bureaucrats will fight to the death to keep.

But all we care about is the ability to work in other states, not about starting government revolutions. If there was some simple system whereby I could be given a state license if I already have a license from another approved state, the problem might be circumvented. It could even be a temporary license. Why is this not possible?

 

[Rich2001]

Ludvik, In most states, but not all, there is a temporary licensing system. Good for one project for a limited duration.

However to facilitate getting a multiple licenses, you could apply to NCEES

http://www.ncees.org

to obtain a council record, after which when you apply to the states and pay a fee, then NCEES will transfer your record to the state board. The council record has, copies of your transcripts, references, work history, etc. The record takes 3 to 6 months to complete.

Is it worth the fee NCEES charges depends on the number of licenses you require? Some states will expedit your application with a record, I took only 1 week for me to obtain a license in Ohio.

After you have a NCEES record you can apply to USCIEP

http://www.usciep.org

for registry in order to expedit obtaining international engineering licenses.

 

[brad]

I've been AWOL for awhile, so I've just now read Ludvik's question regarding my earlier post.

Rich probably is correct as to the origin of the 'why', but it is clear based on what Ludvik stated that the licensing adds up. Sure, it's only a few bucks here and there per-person, but look at how those add up on a statewide basis. I have my license in one state--this is because I have yet to find a need to actually use my license.

The engineers I know who actually use their licenses are typically licensed in 3-6 states. If each of those states didn't require their own individual licenses, but accepted others, there would be a significant loss in revenue.

I think the history of the parochialism is as Rich says, but it certainly does yield some state revenues today (which is part of why it would be hard to change).
Brad