Trench foundation on Geopiers 1

[BubbaJ]

I'd like to start out by saying I am not one who is often at a lack for words, however, after receiving a recent email from an "unhappy" client, I will attribute my silence to some variation of shock.

Said "unhappy" client (U.C.) was commenting on a recent set of preliminary drawings which we presented to U.C. at a recent meeting and discussed many of the issues mention ed in the email. Apparently, I did a very poor job of "educating my client."

The building consists of precast double tees for roof and second floor, 32 foot tall insulated load bearing precast wall panels which I have proposed to sit on a 30" wide, 42" deep concrete trench foundation with longitudinal reinforcing in the bottom. The foundation is supported by 30" dia Geopiers at 6 feet O.C. due to low quality soils. The hold-down reinforcing cages at the Geopiers to resist the uplift from the high design winds are yet to be designed. The trench was proposed due to site constraints, proximity to property lines, existing structures, and multiple utilities.

Many of U.C.'s comments were concerning the lack of precast details which will be completed by the pre-selected precaster. So that can be easily addressed.

The knife in the back (or in the heart) were the comments regarding the proposed foundation. "I have spoken to several contractors that have been in the business for years because this goes against everything we have ever experienced and they also find the footings not acceptable at all." There is concern that the footings will "roll-over" in the ground. There is "tremendous weight" on "small" footings. And the list goes on. He wants the foundation to be a formed wall and wider footing (no he is not an engineer.) He is also demanding that an evaluation of my proposed foundation system be reviewed by another PE.

I have used this type of system on other projects with great success.

I am looking for opinions on an appropriate response to the email from U.C. This is a delicate situation as the Architect on the project is my business partner. How shall I handle this to least keep their relationship intact and remain professional? I can think of a lot of response that will do neither.

I feel I am fighting a losing battle here.

 

[msucog]

if you determine the footings should be 30" wide and 42" deep, and UC wants them bigger...i'd ask them how big he wants them. you've provided your recommendations but if he wants them bigger, i'd simply ask him what he wants. and if he wants another pe to review the design, then as long as your design is appropriate, this could only further limit your liability should something happens later.
i've had clients chew me out for "overly conservative" recommendations because they bought 20' of crappy fill and had no choice but to utilize driven piles due to the size and type of debris in the fill. he said that he thought he should get a second opinion. after an hour of listening to this ass, i finally said "ok, it's your right to hire whomever you choose. if you don't like my recommendations, then you should get a second opinion. you said that you wanted to use auger cast pile and i recommended otherwise due to the bar joists and boulders i dug up during the test pit exploration. you've got 20' of 10-50 year old debris fill and since it's not my building, i could really care less if you use shallow foundations or not. but you should not ask me to evaluate the foundation conditions if that is the case."
i've also had clients that undercut 4' instead of 2' "just because". as long as they meet my recommendations, they can throw as much money at it as they want.
simply put: you cannot save everyone from themselves...you can only provide sound advice and reasonable recommendations. if someone else wants to do the unethical thing and put themselves in the position to be sued, that is their choice...that is not my choice. quality service will bring back quality clients. just because they're clients doesn't mean that you should throw out your recommendations.
good luck!

 

[GTeng]

Off the cuff, a couple of things come to mind reading your email.
You said that "contractors" commented on the design and found them unacceptable. They mention "rollover" and tremendous "weight" on "small" footings. Apparently they don't understand the technical terms "bearing capacity" or "bearing pressure" so they hardly sound like they have the technical understanding appropriate for the issue at hand.
In your situation I would respectfully reply to the owner that I regret his disatisfaction with design that was furnished. I would note that the comments he presented did not provide specific information such as their opinion of the appropriate bearing capacity,the effects of the geopiers, the actual bearing pressure etc, and therefore it is difficult to respond. A succint statement of your design parameters would be helpful. I would also ask if those who provided the comments were registered professional engineers, and would note that most states require professional engineers, when asked by a client to review another engineers work, are obligated to contact the engineer, as a matter of ethics (check your state's PE statutes). I would encourage him to involve other Professional Engineers, if he is that concerned.

 

[TDAA]

Get the guys from Geopier involved to educate the client. They typically like to support thier system. They should be able to tell your client how the system works, how they test to see it works, how the system can help save money and improve performance vs. larger footings or deep foundations, etc.

This should help put the issue to rest. It sounds to me like it is more the fear of the unknown.