Trumpf or Bystronic ? 4

[woodie806]

Hi i am looking to buy a new laser and have narrowed it down to either Trumpf L3030 Trulaser or Bystronic`s Byspeed, i am sure that they will both have much the same performance, i am more interested in reliability and consumables.. anyone had any issues with what they have?

 

[krugtech]

They're both great machines. Considering what the Byspeed can do, I think it's about as simple as a machine can be. The Trumph machines seem kind of Rube Goldberg to me. What size machine/resonator are you considering?

Chris Krug

http://krugtech.com/

 

[woodie806]

we are looking at the Trumpf Trulaser L3030 3.2 kw
and the Bystronic Bysprint pro 3015 4.4kw

 

[kendalsimon]

We have had a Byspeed 3015 since September last year, brilliant machine when all is well, but we have had 3 new servo drivers due to a bad batch of tachogenerators and broke ceramic nozzle bodies for fun at £186 each. Be sure to ask about the cost and frequency of replacing the glass in the resonator. The control seems a little overcomplicated with its two sets of parameters and machine options to be checked for every program, especially when you go from sensing to non sensing regularly like we do. Takes a bit of getting used to and building confidence on for operator and programmers, but will really fly on the right job.

 

[krugtech]

That stinks about the bad tacho's. Problems with the servo drives/motors/tacho's are few and far between on the Bystronic. The 4.4 is one of the most trouble free resonators ever built by Bystronic.

As far as changing the glass, it has a lot to do with laser gas quality and at what power levels you will be using. Doing power checks on a regular basis and any time you put a new bottle of gas on the laser is the best thing you can do to get the most life out of your laser. On the older open loop controls checking the power is really easy, on the newer closed loop controls it takes a little bit more effort to see if the new bottle of gas is causing a lack of performance. Either way, after you learn what to look for you'll know when something isn't right.

I've seen customers run their laser at 100% power for weeks on end, then they'll switch to a job that only requires, say 70% power for a few weeks..... Murphy dictates that this will be when your gas supplier will give you a bad bottle of resonator gas. You wont realize the gas is bad running at 70%, and you'll empty that whole bottle along with all of it's contaminants into your resonator. When the bad bottle is empty you send it away, a few days later you run a job that needs 100% and the resonator can't do it. On top of that, the smoking gun has left the building.

Remember the part where I said to check the power output after you put a new bottle of laser gas into service? This is why I don't recommend resonator gas supply systems that automatically switch between bottles. In my opinion, automatic gas change manifolds are more trouble than they're worth. I wrote a paper on my experience with them, if anyone wants a copy, send me a message.

Chris Krug

http://krugtech.com/

 

[woodie806]

Should you get a bad supply of gas,would you need to replace all the new optics or do a 48hr cleaning cycle? we have a trumpf L3003 1500 that broke some of its glassware and all we had to do was replace the tubes and run a 48hr clean.... never did find out what caused it though.

 

[krugtech]

If you do power checks and find a bad bottle of gas right away then you should not have to do anything with the optics. If the laser is run for extended periods with contaminated gas then you may have to clean and/or replace optics.

If you have an RF laser with a singe RF generator running multiple plasma tubes, what can happen is if the gas is contaminated some of the plasma tubes won’t light and all the RF energy will dump into the remaining tubes that are lit and cause them to run hot. This excess heat can damage seals and possibly damage the glass.


Chris Krug

http://krugtech.com/

 

[woodie806]

Actually that would make sense, we also had a cooling circuit error at the same time.

 

[LASERNINJA]

None of my business, but why would you rule out AMADA. I've had 11 years of service experience on them and found them to be quite reliability.

I don't work for them anymore but I'm still a big fan. I'm sure some countries don't have a service network and certainly this should influence you decision. But other than that, I'm sure that Amada has the lowest cost of ownership of any of the big manufactures.

They do use more Nitrogen when cutting Stainless but that is really only the weakness I am aware of.

I went through the attached document and up dated the prices. I honestly feel it is a good representation.

 

[woodie806]

Well to be honest in the deep Devon countryside of the UK we only had reps form either Bystronic or Trumpf contact us when we started looking, though looking at those prices i would be an idiot not to think seriously about Amada...i use Fabriwin programming from Metalsoft who i believe are now controlled by Amada so there would be no programming transition to worry about either.i will look further... cheers

 

[LASERNINJA]

You are correct about the software. Wouldn't it be nice to get a new machine without having to spend big money on new software?

I can add some labor estimates to that document if you wish. I have no idea what people charge in the UK but the amount of hours to preform the labor should be the same.

Keep in mind that any CO2 laser is subject to bad gas of course. In the US the cases have been far less in recent years than in the early ones. There still is the possibility. If I was making the decision I would look at the things we know are going happen. Mirror change, Blower change, Glass change.

On the FANUC 4kw laser the tubes last about 30,000 hours. I forgot to add that to the spread sheet. Sorry. That does add about $0.40 cents to the hourly operating cost. I have had them last longer but they need to be cleaned periodically in order to make that happen.

 

[krugtech]

In my 23 years working on lasers, there was only one machine that needed more than glass and optics because of bad gas. Most just needed the optics cleaned. In the worst case, the heat exchangers would probably need to be replaced or cleaned as well as replacing the glass and optics. I've never had to change a blower from contaminated gas.

As far as operating cost, lasers that cost less to purchase/operate usually produce less. Best advice is to talk to as many people as possible and see what experience they've had. In addition to cost and production rate, there are many things to consider, i.e.-

How many parts of the machine are made by the manufacturer? Are they building a complete system in house or are they buying resonators, controls, whatever, bolting them together and slapping their name on it?

Can all maintenance be done by the user? Or does the machine require periodic factory service?

Can a user buy any replacement part they need or do certain parts have to be replaced by a factory rep?

Laserninja- you mentioned the Amada uses a lot of n2 but I don’t see it anywhere in your cost per hour sheet. Which brings me to another point, the cost per hour varies widely depending on what you plan on doing with your laser.

Buying a laser isn’t easy, do your homework and talk to as many users as possible.


Chris Krug

http://krugtech.com/

 

[LASERNINJA]

In all seriousness though, your not going to go wrong with any of the big manufactures. My point is that in the US, apples to apples, 4kw to 4kw, the Bystronic asking price is at least 25% more than AMADA. I'm not sure that its produces 25% more product through out the course of a year (tortoise and hare).

The nitrogen cost is hard to quantify because it depends on what is being cut. I wouldn't want to say that the machine is going to consume $12,000 worth over the course of a year when the shop only cuts steel.

 

[krugtech]

While some of what you say is true, not all 4kw's are created equal. The quality of the beam and it's delivery system make a big difference. I've seen 3kw systems outperform higher powered systems simply because the resonator produced a good quality beam and the machines optical path could deliver the beam to the lens without corrupting it.

As for N2 consumption, it's more important now than it ever was. With the higher power lasers available now, more users are cutting steel with N2 for a cleaner cut and to get away from the speed limitations of cutting with O2. Unless the edge of an O2 cut part is cleaned, paint or powder coat will not stick, most new users learn this as an unpleasant surprise.

Chris Krug

http://krugtech.com/

 

[sdudley]

hi ,one thing to consider is the ease of programming and nesting. based on feedback from programmers who have proggrammed both machines they prefer the bystronics for its simplicity of nesting as compared to trumpf. bystronic also has a very easy user interface. my guess is that consumables will be expensive either way... no easy solution for this. again based on customer feedback trumpf has set up there electrical cabinets in such a way that if one compinent goes bad then you have to replace a whole bank of compoinents...which could be costly...you might weant to verify this and not take my word as gospel though.
sdudley