UK Government E-petition: Make 'Engineer' a protected title 4

[corus]

Engineering suffers from an image problem. People believe that engineers simply fix things, but we don't: we invent things. Unfortunately the false image is propagated by hundreds of companies out there who term repair-persons and equipment installers 'Engineers'. Engineering suffers from a lack of graduates, and at a time people are looking to manufacturing to fix the economy we need all the graduates we can get. Sadly they are put off by the false image of engineering. It is thus proposed that the title 'Engineer' is protected legally, like 'Doctor' or 'Architect'. It would be restricted to those who are professional engineers or product designers, or those who have retired from the industry.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/6271

 

[TenPenny]

You mean like we do in Canada.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

And sort of in the USA!!

 

[Ron]

I would encourage all UK engineers to sign this petition. It is a difficulty throughout the world and not unique to the UK.

Protect the profession from usurpation of our image and good name.

Good luck.

ps...you must be a UK citizen or resident to sign the petition...I tried.

 

[KENAT]

Really, this again. You mean the previous petition that had been submitted to the previous govt and that had it's own 2 threads didn't get the job done?

thread731-180126
thread730-181246

Surely before bothering with a petition for legislation, some agreement should be reached on 'what is an engineer' or 'who gets to use the title engineer' etc., which based on the recurring threads on this site isn't something most of us can agree on.

Oh, and as an ex-pat in the US, I wouldn't look toward the system here as the panacea of who does or doesn't get to be called and engineer and when etc.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[corus]

Kenat, You have a problem once you start to define the term as then people can argue against it. Once you agree with the principle of the title of engineer then the quicker it would be agreed, in principle. Later you argue on the precise defintion.

 

[drawoh]

You mean like we do in Canada.

Is it?

The title Professional Engineer is protected in Canada. As far as I can tell, Microsoft is still appointing people Microsoft Certified Systems Engineers, in spite of complaints from the Canadian Council for Professional Engineers.

Try this Google search. Most of the links at the top are from 2002.

JHG

 

[KENAT]

Corus, exactly, you might fight to have the title engineer protected then discover that the definition once determined excludes you from being called one. So, (not that I'm allowed anymore) but I'd be hesitant to push for such legislation without having a pretty good idea of what it would end up meaning for me.

One of us is clearly putting the horse before the cart, I'm just not entirely sure which.

As to not graduating enough engineers (and before Molten pitches in;-)) is this really true? I graduated late last century in the UK and it seemed like many of my co graduates ended up taking jobs outside of engineering for one reason or another - including lack of more relevant jobs. Have things changed that much since then?

Plus, if I put my self interest first, maybe reducing supply of new grads is good if it results in demand supporting higher wages for those of us already graduated - just saying.

Don't get me wrong, it can be frustrating to say you're an engineer only to have people assume you fix cars or appliances or drive a train, however almost every proposed definition of who gets to be called an engineer that I've seen tends to be a bit too restrictive - even a couple that would have allowed me to be called one.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[patprimmer]

As far as I know, you do not need a degree in medecine and to be registered with and licensed by a professional board or association to be called a doctor. You simply need a higher degree in anything from just about any institution calling itself a University. Heck, some even advertise them mail order.

What you need is the qualification and license to practice medicine.

I think in most places engineering is the same. A train driver can call himself an engineer, but he needs a license to specify structural components in buildings or structures.

Regards
Pat
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[SNORGY]

This could turn into a contentious 100+ post thread.

Personally I would sign the UK's petition if I was eligible. I think it's a good idea.


Regards,

SNORGY.

 

[IRstuff]

Good luck with all of that. Labels cannot be protected; people will use them as they choose.

Are we seriously contemplating have the GOVERNMENT police chase down every person or company spuriously or correctly using the term engineer? Do we not have better things to spend our tax dollars on, like REAL crime?

TTFN

FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize

 

[SomptingGuy]

I'm well beyond caring. Based on common usage, "Engineer" means what the majority think it means, not what profession insists upon. It amuses me that where I work, if a printer or photocopier breaks down, a secretary/administrator will normally put a notice on it to say "Engineer called" and it doesn't take long for (a) someone to cross it out and replace it with "Serice man", "Fitter", "Technician", etc. (b) the secretary to get all huffy about being corrected by some nerd.

I only get miffed when there is a choice of occupations on some form, which includes a "professionals" category, but that doesn't even give the option of engineer. And of course I NEVER use that term when getting a motor insurance quote as it carries a premium (blue collar worker, likely to modify his vehicle and be a risk). I usually say "computer programmer" or "software engineer". I even used "acoustic consultant" once, which was technically true at the time, but not what was on my business cards.


- Steve

 

[SomptingGuy]

To qualify, "engineer" means different things in different parts of the English-speaking World, which I should have mentioned. I describe it it the country that invented modern day engineering, sadly.

- Steve

 

[SNORGY]

The petition and the attempt to protect the title, while not perfect perhaps, are nevertheless forward-thinking and well-intended. I believe that we engineers, as a whole, have sadly allowed ourselves to be bullied and trampled on to the point that we no longer bother to stick up for ourselves. So, while doctors, lawyers and teachers become "professionals", we become, for lack of better definition, mere soap tablets in the urinal of life.

Just putting on a yellow raincoat and putting up with it gets old after a while. Maybe it's time we collectively acted to secure a more appropriate position or status in society.

That's what MBAs seem to be able to do...

Not that I am in any way bitter...


Regards,

SNORGY.

 

[SomptingGuy]

Define "professional" anyway. We all know what the oldest profession in the World is.

- Steve

 

[SNORGY]

Well, in a sense, that's what engineers are as well, but that's another thread altogether.

Regards,

SNORGY.

 

[TED7]

The whole thing strikes me as job snobbery really.

Designer of machine tools - user of modified screws

 

[ScottyUK]

Snobbery? No more so than the other licensed professions such as medicine and law.

Frankly the title doesn't bother me - I'm more interested in the fact that they get paid significantly than us, and part of the reason for that is because they run a 'closed shop'.


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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[zdas04]

I just looked at Lawyer and Engineer salaries and saw that the "average" (no definition of the parameters they lumped) lawyer is making $64k USD and the "average" engineer is making $66k USD.

My guess is that the spread is pretty wide for both professions and that an engineer in the very highest bracket is making substantially less than a lawyer in their very highest bracket. On the other hand an engineer in the lowest bracket is probably making a lot more than a lawyer in their lowest bracket.

As a "profession" I've never felt like I was substantially underpaid, and I've seen new-hires out of school start at well over the average at new-hire.com.

Medical doctors on the other hand seem to be doing ok, but I REALLY don't want some guy that is disgruntled about his compensation making life and death decisions about my medical care. I want them to be very happy with their compensation.

David

 

[jmw]

The trouble with E-petitions is that they are meant to amuse but not to be in any way functional.
What has been most evident from all those I have participated in is that they are really designed for politicians to practise making excuses for not doing what everyone thinks they should be doing.
It doesn't matter if it is membership of Europe, Climate Change or anything else.
But if anyone can point to any e-petitions that actually achieved a result, please let me know.
This is the UK, not Switzerland.
In Switzerland once a certain number to signatures have been received, the government must hold a referendum on the issue and in the terms declared in the petition and it must abide by the result and it is not allowed to come back to it for a minimum period of time.
But good luck with it anyway.

JMW

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