Unethical Hiring Practices 12

[Indyneer]

Is anyone else annoyed by the postings on the big internet career sites? All the jobs are through recruiters and alot of them are just temp contract to direct jobs. It seems that none of the companies want to identify themselves and deal "upfront and honest" with engineering candidates.

Is the future of engineering such that we will all have to choose between being pimped out by technical staffing firms or being jobless? Any thoughts?

 

[brad]

I'm not suggesting that your observation isn't correct, but here is an interesting bit of information that I have only recently come across. Sometimes those internet postings are being made without the endorsement of the company that is looking for a job. My company recently advertised on our own website for an engineering position. We have now gotten 3 or 4 candidates from a fairly large internet career site. We have found that our positions are being advertised on this site. We did not provide any information to this company (nor does it appear that we have in the past). It is our best guess that they were trolling on our internet site, and essentially are finding then posting our openings on their site. I'm not clear how they make their money on this, because on our end they are providing a free service to us.

As far as other companies go, many larger firms do not seem to deal with posting their jobs on these sites (largely because they are already getting in more resumes than they can handle). This often leaves only contract positions for the companies being advertised (since these positions are through much smaller contract houses).

As far as our future goes, I still think the best course of action is to network and make connections with other professionals (or recruiters), and use these relationships to find/improve your situation. I just don't think the internet has yet found a way to really replace this aspect of job-hunting.

 

[ksuengrng]

Indyneer:

I also have noticed that companies don't want to be known who they are. When I am approached by a recruiter, I ask the area and then I specifically ask them the name of the company. Many tell me they are not allowed to say at this point in the job search, that it isn't important. I usually then ask the name of the town/city and the product they produce. Upon knowing this, I then use the internet, Thomas Register, Standard and Poors, etc... to find out who they are, or at least narrow it down. If the recruite doesn't provide this information, I inform them I am not interested.

I would also like to add that I discovered a while back that a lot of the jobs posted by recruiters are to feed their resume pool. They post these incredible jobs with these incredible salaries so that they can get the attention of a lot of people.

These people send in their resume's and then the recruiter suddenly has this other opportunity that more closely matches your skills. It can be very frustrating to any type of engineer, whether experienced or a new grad.

I have ran into some very shady recruiters, and then have had some excellent experiences with others.

In my eyes, not everything about the internet is good, and at times, job recruiting is one of them.

 

[waterguy]

My experience with recruiters have been both good and bad. I have had a couple of interviews that have been setup through recruiters. The jobs and the companies were legitimate, and they were exactly as the recruiter had described.

My pet peeve is that I will often get called for jobs that having nothing to do with me. The recruiter will confirm their information about me and my field of work (civil engineering / municipal / water resources) and then will quickly change gears and tell me that they are looking for an HVAC Engineer and ask me if I know any. I'm almost to the point of telling them that if they place somebody that I have recommended, I want a percentage of their fee. Seems only fair doesn't it ?

As was suggested earlier, I think networking with other professionals in your field will get you a lot further.

 

[RDK]

I think that we should have some pity and compassion for recruiters. It is a tough job. They get job requests from clients who do not really know what they want (except cheap) and then have to sort through a lot of inflated resumes to find the ideal candidate. You know: 25 years old PhD with 15 years experience willing to work for minimum wage, must be capable of structural, electrical mechanical and geotechnical design.

My only experience with recruiters that got past the first phone call involved a firm who wanted someone to manage a major construction project on their behalf. They offered the opportunity to stay behind after the construction was finished and be the plant engineer. The client was astonished when I pointed out that the skills, abilities and mindset for these two positions was directly opposite and someone who was good and happy at one would not good and happy at the other. I would consider a position as a plant engineer as punishment not an opportunity and would expect that the plant operations types out there would rather be thrown into a vat of boiling oil than into a construction project. (At least the oil is quicker). We cannot all want the same thing out of life, that’s what makes life interesting and keeps the competition for my job to a reasonable level.

As a consultant who manages projects I bring to the project not only my own skills but also an office trailer full of computers and technical equipment plus insurance and other benefits. The client wanted this thrown in for free since I would not be using it anyway. (I normally include this stuff in an all inclusive fee structure.) He also wanted me to work as a salaried employee at about 1/3 my usual rate with no compensation for overtime or the two hour a day commute from my home to the project site.

The recruiter did not over sell the job; he was actually quite a decent type of guy. He had been trying to tell the client the same things that I was saying and has several of us CM types tell the client in hopes of convincing him that this was not the way to go.

I have heard through the grapevine that, clients being clients, he got a junior plant operation type, put him in charge of a multi million expansion and is now wondering why he does not have an plant operating and has a few lawsuits from contractors to fight.

Recruiters do serve some good in the hiring process. They can protect the company from a flood of unwanted résumé’s. I had a job opening (entry level technician) that I advertised through some of the usual channels. I was still receiving résumé’s six months after the position was filled. Sometimes the company does not want to be identified. They may be planning or bidding on some work that they do not want to publicly acknowledges or advertise. They may be planning on moving their operation and do not want to upset their current workforce until they know if they are moving.

Good recruiters can also protect you the employee. Say you work for someone who would take a dim view of your looking elsewhere. A mailbox type of ad may be your current employer. A good recruiter will screen you out of employers you do not wish to receive your resume.

Still in 25 years on the job, I have only once got beyond the first phone call with a recruiter or the big job sites. (Not that I have applied for much through the job sites since they are usually looking for different skills than I offer.)

I do agree that networking is your best way to get jobs. I have been on my own for several years and have never gotten any significant work from cold calls. All work has come from people I have known prior to the job.

Manage and nurture your network contacts. I try to call everyone on my contact list at least twice a year. It makes for only a call or two a day if you spread out the calls. If you find out someone’s birthday put it in your planner and call them. Call them near Christmas and wish them the best for the holidays. I don’t bother with the company cards as its too impersonal, a phone call is better. E-mail them a joke (one that you know that they will appreciate I don’t mind off colour jokes but some of my contacts would be offended by that sort of thing.) (I never send the same joke to everyone on my contact list at the same time. I will sent individuals or small groups known to each other the same joke and then send the same joke to others in separate e-mails.) Call once in a while to say hello. Don’t only call when you want something. Call to offer them something, a job lead, a business opportunity, a promising candidate for a job that they may have, or something. If you are passing through their city even just changing planes, take them out for coffee or lunch, or at least use that as an excuse to call.

The best is if you can do something unique for their kids. I was once working on a major Canadian military base that had an annual international fighter exercise. All the NATO countries sent fighters here for a six-week exercise. One of my contacts had a kid who was aircraft crazy. I got them a pass onto the base and they spent the day about 200 m from the ramp where the aircraft (F-`15, F-16, F-18 Harriers, Migs etc) were being serviced (fuel and weapons, think of a pit pass to a race car track). I also passed on a couple of patches (badges) and zaps (stickers) that I had been given and the kid was in seventh heaven. The Dad and I are now discussing some significant work.

The original question was “Is the future of engineering such that we will all have to choose between being pimped out by technical staffing firms or being jobless? Any thoughts?” There is a third option and that is the solo route. I know that it isn’t for everyone but the rewards are real and the satisfaction levels can be higher. If you don’t want to go solo or even if you do I cannot stress the importance of networking to find the real jobs and most importantly the jobs that you fit and that fit you.

Good Luck
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[a3a]

Hey Waterguy,

You wrote: " I'm almost to the point of telling them that if they place somebody that I have recommended, I want a percentage of their fee. Seems only fair doesn't it ?"


Well, you aren't too far off. This one recruiter told me that they actually pay around $150 for any referral that I give them that they place with the company. I'm not sure if you were serious about your comment. It is probably not the percentage you were looking for, and probably not enough to quit your day job.

 

[TechRecruiter]

Things to remember about us bad technical recruiters. Many of us have gotten a bad piece of fruit before, and that doesn't mean that all fruit is bad. I have ran across a lot of technical candidates in my eight years in the technical staffing business who lied on their resumes, who failed drug screens badly after saying there was no reason to be concerned, techies who would not take a job maikng $120.00 per hour when they had been out of work for six months and still were looking to make $135.00 per hour. You just don't know how it is on our side. Our clients ask for us to perform a service, and only about 5 percent of them are serious. We get caught in the middle. Realize that we are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars each year to find these companies who might not otherwise make their opening known to the candidates we put in front of them. We do not work at or have not worked at the company so we don't know about the job other than what we are told. We do not tell company names because we have had tech candidates then call the company themselves to try and get the job around us after we disclosed who our client was. I suggest that we do not live in glass houses and throw stones. We place an awful lot of people in jobs they love and thank us for, but you never hear the good things we do.

 

[DeltaCascade]

Great cmoments, above.

You are confusing your objective of a satisfying engineering career with the objective of getting what you want on a website. The latter is not your goal .. and out of your control, anyhow. Forget it.

Recruiters provide a valuable service .. if you can't market yourself. But that is another story... it has nothing to do with engineering per se, or "pimping!!"!!!! Yuck

An excellent book is "How to Survice and Market Yourself in Management" by Plenninger. Written in the 70's before internet, but still so very very helfpul ...

Good luck...

 

[leanne]

I've had good & bad experiences with recruiters. My current job was via an application & resume submittal at the company website, but they subcontract the hiring process up to a certain point so I dealt with a recruiter up to that point.

I was unemployed for almost 6 months after a lay-off and have only been back at work for about 2 months. I was actively seeking a job using networking, the internet, the newspaper,...I also worked as a substitute teacher part of the time I was unemployed & I hated it...I'm glad there are those with a talent & gift for being a teacher as well as the patience to deal with a class of kids like I was - I'm not one of them...

My biggest annoyance with recruiters is being contacted me in response to my resume in monster / careerbuilder / hotjobs / dice indicating they saw my resume & then proceeding to describe a position which HAD THEY READ MY RESUME, they would know I was not qualified for...

As soon as I had a firm employment offer that I accepted, I inactivated my online resumes...

 

[ICman]

11 jobs in 30 years. Several thru professional recruiters. When I was layed off 20 years ago, I used my contacts thru a professional society and landed a better job in one week. Up until '99 I avoided being "pimped" out thru contract work.

I've been layed off twice in the last 4 years. After 3 months, I started looking for contract work, just to maintain an income. I found a direct job thru a job shop.

When I was layed off from that job 3 years later, I again turned to CE Weekly (mostly contractor jobs) and took on a couple of 6 month contract assignments. They were a pain, in that I had to move 1000 miles from home for each. However, the pay was good. I could have gone direct with one (the other company cancelled my contract abruptly - 1.5 hour notice - but went belly up a month ago). I didn't really feel like a prostitute, but that I was happy to help these companies out with my experience.

I found my current (direct) job thru Monster.com, just by luck. I just survived a major cutback, and hope I'm here for a while. It doesn't pay nearly what the contract jobs did, but I can get by.

Jobs are scarce, especially with all the high-tech companies folding. Many companies merge and layoff people, which just makes things worse. However, they often find that they must hire contractors (some ex-employees) to get the work done.

Since the cost of benefits has skyrocketed in recent years, contractors look good to many companies. Both company and contractor gain some tax benefits, too. Other than the physical displacement, I would consider contract work if I wasn't working direct. There is no job security or company loyalty anymore, so why not?

 

[sc]

From my own experience as a manager I have used some internet sites to obtain candidates for engineering jobs, often specifically requesting engineers with specific qualifications. The applications I recieved were generally of reasonably qualified people from overseas who did not match our job requirements. I didn't mind this so much, however when the recruiter emailed suggesting that I broaden my approach and talk to some of the overseas applicants I was left feeling some what flat.

The reason being that when I did contact two of the candidates, they informed me that they would be in Australia at a latter date (approx. 8-12 weeks) and could we meet then. As the job was for an immediate start I informed them that this was not possible as I hoped to have the new staff member by then. In addition when talking to their referees I found that the people were either traveling or in Australia wanting to apply for a longer term visa (which required a longer term contract job). Again not necessarily a problem, however the job was a permanent position. The point being that I had many inappropriate applicants that wasted my time and theirs.

The recruitment industry needs to re-assess how it places people and companies together for particular jobs so that they are not wasting time and money.


sc

 

[oranjeep]

Leane:
I am unemployed for 2 months now. I am also working as a substitute teacher part of the time I am unemployed & I don't hate it, but I would rather be doing something else.
Let me tell you, teachers do not get paid enough for what they have to put up with. And no, I was not just as bad as these urchins are.

But substitute teaching looks better on a resume than collecting UC, so let's leave it at that.

I am relying heavily (not completly) on recruiters because,
beside the company that laid me off, I do not know any engineers or anyone who even knows any engineers. And they laid me off because they thought I was incompetent, so the likelyhood of them refering me to anyone is slim.
Where do engineers hang out? What do they do after work?

 

[GregLocock]

Where do engineers hang out?

In workshops, sheds and garages, or in front of their PCs

What do they do after work?

More engineering!

Or we meet up in pubs and talk about engineering and alimony. There may be a link there...

Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[StarrRider]

Indyneer

Please check out

http://www.FlipDog.com

- This is not you average employment site. The difference is that FlipDog uses a web crawler to search for employment listings in businesses. So if company ABC is on the web and has an employment page, you will find those jobs listed. As a matter of fact – you will see a copy of that company’s page. The links will not work but you can normally figure out who they are and find them without ever registering with FlipDog. They also have a toggle that eliminates recruiters from being listed.

Lee

Consciousness: That annoying time between naps.

 

[jbknudsen]

I know that the recuriters are out beating bushes trying to make a living as well. As TechRecruiter put it, if only about 5% of the apples are good, Why should I seek employment through a recruiter. The odd are already stacked in the wrong direction. I am one of the guys that takes his job serious and I hold high regard for integrity, responsibility and accountability for ones actions. Why shoud I be penalized because joe blow cant pass a drug screening. I kind of look at recutiters as car sales reps.
OH HEY HOW'S IT GOING, I HAVE 3 OR 4 IMMEDIATE OPENINGS THAT NEED SOMEONE OF YOUR CALIBER. SEND ME YOUR UPDATED RESUEME AND REQUIREMENTS. Same sales pitch , give me your info, we can place you in a better job and we can do it right now.
I personally have gone with recruiters for two positions (two different placement companies). Neither have been satisfactory. But then again, I like the slogan "why settle". I am willing to stick it out and find the right position on my own. Most head hunters drop me like a hot rock when I tell them that I am only interested in FULL time PERMANANT positions. I dont want them to waste my time and I dont want to waste their time. I guess that I am one of the 5% group that has had 100% bad experiences from placement firms.

Jay

 

[AndrewTX]

I have to agree with Bradh, above. I used several online job search sites as well as a couple recruiters when looking for a new position over 2 years ago. They were okay at best. I spent months posting my resume all over the internet and applying for open positions. All of that work resulted in one interview.

Although I did get one interview from all of those online sites, it was networking that actually landed me in my current job. That is how I've made my last three job changes.

 

[TD2K]

I got one of my jobs through a recruiter. When I was told who I was interviewing with, I was surprised as I had applied to them directly when they were looking for people a few weeks before that to get the 'thanks but no thanks' letter.

First question I was asked was 'why didn't you apply when we were advertising for people?' The look on their face when I said I had, and got a letter from them saying I didn't fit their current needs, was worth it. Especially when the second person from their side then walked in and asked me the same question . Got the job also.

 

[StarrRider]

bradh

In answer to your question – there are a lot of ways for the web sites to earn money by doing what they do without charging your company or a job seeker. Most of them use Ad sales, Resume Writing, bulk Resume sending, and other special services to generate income. Monster partnered itself with BrainBench (a company that does skill testing & certifications). Dice is partnered with another company that does the same thing. Both companies are constantly making other offers as well. Until recently – every time I entered my Dice account I had to select “No Thanks” to an offer for (I believe) insurance.

The key to all of this is the number of users that they can get onto their site. They do not troll your web site – they use a special program called a Bot - that does nothing except search the web for specific things and returns a link to a page. When new links are found – another program is used to filter the contents of that page into the format that they are using. After that – each and every day your site is checked to see if any new positions have been added.

The problem with all of this is that when you hire somebody and remove the position from your site. – It is not remove it from the Job Sites listings. They want to display as many jobs as they can. When I do a Search for “SolidWorks” in California - the default that Dice uses is 30 days – with Monster it is 60 days. In others - 90 days is not uncommon.

I do not know how much cash they make off of this – but I was surprised when I found the advertising pages that listed prices for one of the “Free” Newsletter that I receive – In a 6 month period - the smallest total was $15,000 and the max was $30,000. I think that is a pretty damn good gross for maintaining a mailing list (they do not create any content of their own).

Lee

Consciousness: That annoying time between naps.

 

[StarrRider]

bradh

I have had a lot of luck in the last 20 years with Job Shops. I am not a salesman and I have never been good at getting past the receptionist or the HR people. With a Job Shop – I bypass those people and deal directly with the manager. I’ve found that the only thing most managers care about is getting the work done. A agree - and THAT is where I excel.

As soon as I know what they want – I turn on and start showing off. The wording might not be very good and I don't mean anything obnoxious – but I listen, ask questions, show them what I can do, and try to help in any way that I can. It pays!!! Most of the positions that I have had started out as temporary contracts.

At the same time, I have ended contracts that I was not suited for. The bad part about this is that - invariable – you sever the relationship with the recruiter at the same time. They never seem to understand that just because a person can do something – that they might not want to do it. I am Electro/Mechanical but I have had recruiters try to stuff me into Civil or Architectural positions – both of which I’ve found that I have no talent for or desire to do.

With the web – I have not had that kind of success. The only position that I have gotten off the web made me more than a little nervous. I was in the process of moving to LA when I submitted my resume to a recruiter in MA for a position in LA – I was in NC at the time. He asked if he could modify it slightly to highlight some of the things that I had done. I said sure – but then I wondered how he could do that – he wasn’t there. I called him from Dallas and he told me the manager wanted to do a phone interview. I asked him to fax me a copy of the resume that he had sent them.

I got the fax and I was amazed at the differences. My last position – where I had worked for 5 years was only 6 months long. The two year position before that was missing and a contract that had lasted 6 months had grown to over 6 years. Worse still – that contract was in Mechanical Aviation but it now showed Electrical Aviation. – I may be good – but I am NOT that good!!! Still - I needed to go to work - NOW. I did the phone interview and I got the job. As it turned out - the Recruiter did know the company and I worked there for 4 months. They were happy with my performance and asked if more money would keep me there – but I kept waiting for the Ax to fall. I bailed out of there as soon as I found another position.

Lee

Consciousness: That annoying time between naps.

 

[etch]

Here in the uk, we are experiencing a trend that is somewhat alarming. Many recruitment agencies advertise for a job that they are not authourised to fill. To explain this, i have seen recently the same job being advertised by at least 9 different recruitment agencies.

Now this in itself is not a crime but imagine if you apply to one agency, thinking you are suitably qualified for the position only not to hear anything. A big morale dent. I think agencies do this for two reasons.

They look through papers and other agency job sites and post the positions as thier own.

They have no knowledge of the parent company but only want to have your cv for thier records.

If they do have the companies name they will flood him with cvs hoping one will be taken on, thus getting them a recruitment fee.

all this is for very little work on thier part, but leaves the employee totally bewildered as to why he recieved no response for a position he applied for.