Unhappy like many of us 7

[farmENGR]

Hi Everyone.

I work for a small distributor of cutting tools in particular carbide/cermet tipped sawblades and other blades including friction/segmental/HSS. Primarily we are a grinding shop. Our boss is a very demanding guy. He is in his mid 30's and is a good buisness man, cagey, slick, and sharp. I have been unhappy here for much of the year i have worked for them. Its my first real job out of college and i'm 26. Im a applications/process/ and even our quality engineer. Anyways our boss allways expects more from us and so everyone is wearing the proverbal 5 hats. We are "lean" as they say. Not really....

Last monday our operations manager(production lead man) quit after three years. He could not handle our boss and that day so many things went wrong and our boss picked the wrong fight with him that day. This guy was not only doing lead man stuff but also a full time mainteance man as well. A big problem with him is he didn't know how to delegate well. Instead of teaching me how to do something so i can learn he would do it himself and sometimes i would watch and he would never explain. I would always have to ask questions to learn something. Anyways He was always busy fixing a machine or filling in for someone sick or someone that didn't come to work. He was getting paid poorly as well. Granted he doesn't have a degree but i know he is worth more and frankly i have told him on the side. "hey man what you do is basically manuf enginereing work and could make much more money elsewhere because of your experience". Well a few days later he was allowed to come back but he is only doing mainteance work on machines now and so we have an open position. His title was Operations manager. This new position is titled Production Lead man. Bascially its the same job. Our boss has asked one guy in the shop that has been there for seven years but he doesn't want it. He says he doesn't wanna deal with our boss and answer to him everyday but he also shys away from responsibility. I have noticed that as of late.

We are a small shop and i have thought about applying for the job but i really wanted HR and my boss to come to me and ask. I feel that management experience would help further my skillset and help strengthen my resume. I have had alittle bit of supervisor work at a job i worked in during college but really none at this job.

I just got woof today that a kid who is afew years younger than me and has only been there like 3 months has shown interest in the job. He runs one of our drilling/milling machines. He is very new. Once i heard that from our old operat manager i sent an email to my boss requesting to be considered for the prod leadman job that is open. Why is the job now Production leadman instead of operations manager?? i wonder about that. It seems my boss is further trying to degrate the positon yet having a shit ton of responsibilities. To me this crap is inexcusable!!

I explained that i would want to have a 30-60 day trial period with a review period after that to decide if i could handle the job responsibilites. If my boss felt i could handle the job i would gladly accept. If i could not handle the job i would gladly concede and go back to full engineering responsibilities which really now most of the time boar me. We don't do any real engineering work out of our shop. We have a salesguy who is pretty knowledgeable and so he and the other salesmen really call most shots. So basically i don't feel used very well but my boss has said i bring value to us. Whatever that means. Well basically im the only one who has the real engineering background. I guess it looks good in paper when my boss is trying to acquire new customers. Yes i have learned alot and done some good things for our shop but alot of times i'm boared and don't wanna go to work in the morning.

My bosses response to my email was that this job was a step below me. He says they have big plans for me over the next 12 months. He even said that it pays less money and has no engineering work involved. Well hay, i'm thinkin' i don't do much engineering work anyways. It sounds like he doesn't want me to even apply for teh job and doesn't want to give it to me. He said if i was still interested tho he would consider me.

I talked with my gf and i still cannot understand with the laundry list of responsibilities on the job posting in the shop that it would be worth less money than my current job. it seems very demanding and stressful. Like i said the job responsibilities are endless. There was about 10 bulletpoints with multiple items on each bullet. You are responsible for making sure safety regulations are followed, manage people, develop and hone our employees skills, coach our employees, help out anyway you can, ect ect ect. My gf told me today that He/HR or even the company/HR has developed that job for someone without a degree which allows them to pay very poorly and get away with it. Like i said before its still great experience for me but not for a large pay cut. That seems pretty stupid from my view. To me this job cannot be accomplished and done well without someone with engineering/machining/management/pricing knowledge.

I continued to talk with my gf about this and how much the person is resonsible for. Our old oper manager was always running around almost frantically and sometimes even so. Granted he smoked and had to take smoke breaks every hour but whatever it is what it is. My gf explained to me that exercise phyisologists work with nurses when stress tests are applied in hospitals and even tho ex phy are running around and doing all the work they still make less. Why? Their degree is not as intensive/exstensive as a Registered nurse. She also gave me the example of a CNA and a RN working together. The cna makes OK money and is doing all the labor intensive work while yes the nurse works but does the routine blood pressure/change fluids/monitor patients/ect ect.. A RN's schooling is much more rigourus and demanding than a CNA program as you guys probably already know that.

Any suggestions? I feel like i'm being held back and i have felt like this with this company b4. My gf thinks my boss is looking out for me. He says he doesn't want me to take a step back with how far i have come. Its probably worht noting i have a company car and company credit card for cases when i'm on the road.

I don't think my boss is a bad guy but to me i always feel like he has these very very secret, shady hidden agendas. Because our oper manager has stepped down i have being doing more logistical things in the shop so i hope i am noticed. My mom said to just keep doing what you are and he will notice you and the value you posess.

I have a hard time looking at this from other prospectives. Hense why i have asked you guys. I am activly looking at other jobs and just this week alone after reposting my resume online i've had 8 recruitors call me in 3 days and a phone interview yesterday. Only problem with new jobs is you are the new guy on the block. a price you have to be willing to pay. thanks guys!! PLEASE BE HONEST AND BLUNT WITH ME. i can take it.

 

[MikeHalloran]

Have your resume checked by someone who is much better at grammar, and especially spelling, as you are. Same for whatever engineering reports or records you are expected to produce. Your spelling reflects poorly on you, as does the IM-speak, and non-words like "anyways".

Engineers are _usually_ paid more than production line managers. They may make less than production lead men, if the company works a lot of overtime, but the benefits are usually better. Your mileage may vary.

Your workplace sounds rather dysfunctional. An engineer should be able to find plenty to do in such a place, draining the swamp and such. If you're bored, look around for opportunity; don't waste that 'idle' time.

Trust me, Production Manager is one job you don't want, at least not in that shop. Things are not (yet) organized well enough that the boss can look away even for a second. That frustrates him, and he takes it out on, well, whoever is around. A good engineer could help him resolve some of his problems by getting the shop processes documented and under control. There is no indication that you are doing that. Consider it.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[ctopher]

Have your resume checked by someone who is much better at grammar, and especially spelling, as you are. Same for whatever engineering reports or records you are expected to produce. Your spelling reflects poorly on you, as does the IM-speak, and non-words like "anyways".

I thought the exact same thing.

Chris
SolidWorks 10 SP5.0
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

 

[tygerdawg]

ditto to both Mike & Ctopher.

My teeth grind whenever I see stuff like this. Then I just get a smug look on my face and watch the Corporate-Societal Darwinism run its course. And whenever I get addressed as "@TygerDawg", it just makes my head explode.

farm, some advice: tighten up and polish your professionalism, else don't expect anyone to take you seriously. That 30-something boss clearly hasn't got any management skills other than cracking a whip and running things in expedite-only mode. That's cancerous. There is a decision to be made here. If you really do choose to chase this position, I suggest you make a proposal of HOW exactly you would do your job, and not accept how they think it should work. Then start the negotiations.

TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering

http://www.bluetechnik.com

 

[jmw]

My gf thinks my boss is looking out for me.

I doubt it.

Your boss is looking out for him.

Do not mistake anything that happens that benefits you as being done for the purpose of benefiting you.
This is a collateral benefit. It comes from something that is really done to benefit your boss.

In fact, some bosses would rather do something that does themselves or the company no good if they can thus avoid doing an employee any good.

If when the boss does something that benefits you it is done for his benefit, your interests happen to be aligned and it is easy to mistake the intent.

It is when they are not aligned, when what is good for your boss is not good for you, just as what was good for the boss was not good for the operations guy, that you find the worm in the apple.

(PS: keep listening to the GF, but you both need to shed those rose tinted glasses you look at the world through. The reality is often darker but more interesting).

The operations guy, already underpaid, has a row with the boss, and quits.
He doesn't come back in his old job, he comes back lower down the tree. He is "allowed back" you say.
His choice?
Was he set up?
Did the boss exploit/exacerbate the situation?
How long, while everyone jockeys for the vacancy, before he is being made to pick up various of the responsibilities he has dropped but without getting back his salary?

As others have said, this is a dysfunctional place.
The operations guy, having quit, should have kept on running.
The boss should have either brought him back with a smile at his old position and salary but agreed to find him some more staff and helped him delegate more; restored him and salvaged him or left him alone. The reality is that without him the boss was in a hole.
He isn't going to admit to any fault but he isn't going to be left without the skills the guy has. If this doesn't suggest you take a look at who's interests are being served and at whose expense I don't know what will.

Bringing him back in a lower position and doing what he is doing is a recipe for disaster. He probably doesn't expect the guy to last long.
He has put a ceiling on this guys life and expectations.
There cannot help but be resentments. So he will report to a guy once his junior and with only 3 months on a drill press?
You think this is good?
He once was up and now he isn't ever going back, which is why he should have kept on running.

Your judgement:

"hey man what you do is basically manuf enginereing work and could make much more money elsewhere because of your experience".

So why is he back at a lower position?
You reinforce success. You find what makes good people under-perform and you fix it.
Your boss has no interest in fixing it.

Don't expect or trust that he has any real interest in helping you, after a year, any better than he has helped this guy who was there for three years in that position.

Seems a lot of people don't want to see what was done to him but do want to see what opportunities it opens up for them. That's part of nature but the real lesson is in what was done to him.

Learn, do your job as best you can but don't be deceived by management speak.

...they have big plans for me over the next 12 months.

More employees have been taken in by this same line of bunkum since the days of living in caves than any other lie. It is less believable than a 419 Nigerian email scam and employees ask even less intelligent questions of this than of a 419 an still get caught.

Take these new job offers very seriously.
It is OK, these days, to chop and change early in your career. It will help broaden your foundation and skills.

As to being bored?
That's life. Get used to it. Value it.
In every job there are necessary boring bits.
They are also part of the contrast. Just to make sure you appreciate some of shiny bright interesting bits, all the more shiny for the contrast. It will also expose you to more bad managers (the vast majority) bad workers (a fair proportion) boredom but varied by job and you will get to see some more solid hard-working people get shafted by bad managers.

Expect it to be years before anyone really lets you fly. And don't cut short that process. The more solid the foundation the better the building.

Take note of the comments above about spelling and grammar.
It was like "Flowers for Algernon" in places, but a good narrative otherwise.
There is a spell checker that underlines as you write. You must have seen it at work. Sure, write to the end to maintain your flow, but do go back and correct and plan on having less correcting to do in the future.

One of the first things I learned on this site was to write "I" and not "i" - this in the first post or two and no excuses accepted. You should see the parallels to engineering.

Be thorough and solid. Be fussy. Be exact. Check and correct. These are the least of the skills you need as an engineer (note your spelling of "engineer" in the quote above).

At work/Facebook/Twitter you will deal with many different people, in these fora you deal with engineers.

Which side do you want to learn from?

When the guys here pick up on what you think are trivialities, and not what you asked about, take another look; you may be learning important lessons even when you think it is just old duffers rocking on the porch and banging their gums ("Polish on, polish off").

Good luck.





JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[jmw]

OK, I left at least two errors in there.
Go find them.

I'm feeling good today, even without my coffee, so there is also a short story reference and a film reference for added interest.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[MacGyverS2000]

Difficult to take someone with only one year out of college seriously as a manager... unless I was fresh out of college, too, I wouldn't have any reason to expect useful management skills. I would reconsider applying for such a position until you're been around management types for a while... you may learn what makes a good manager and what makes a bad one.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[KENAT]

While I'm usually willing to think the worst of management and you don't exactly paint him in a glowing light, I'll throw this out for you.

Maybe he really has decided to split the old job into 2, with the old guy doing the maintenance portion and the new job overseeing production more.

If so then the new position may well be a real step down.

Positions that require a degree often pay more for equally challenging positions that don't require one. You're essentially getting compensated for the time and money you took to get the degree - I don't see why anyone with the degree would complain about this!

I agree on Macs point too - I turned down a management position when I had a good sight more than 1 year because I knew I lacked experience. The only times I'd suggest someone with so little experience taking a management role is if the alternative is something terrible (e.g. an incompetent buffoon being made your boss instead) or if you're some kine of genuine high flyer or in a brand new field or something - kind of like an internet tycoon or something. Even then, once the business is up and running they will sometimes bring in someone with more experience.

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[farmENGR]

Hi Everyone,

I will try to reply to some of your questions. I did not realize how professional this site is so in the future(now) I will try to not make grammer/spelling mistakes.
I will respond to KENT first.

@KENT “Positions that require a degree often pay more for equally challenging positions that don't require one. You're essentially getting compensated for the time and money you took to get the degree - I don't see why anyone with the degree would complain about this!” How about considering the real facts that the job does not advance your knowledge in the way for which you would like. The job is not challenging from an engineering prospective. I do not want to acquire skills that will not be tangible. I would like to further advance my skill sets, not go in another direction off course.

“Bring in someone with more experience”…yeah that will not happen, at least till’ the kid, myself, and someone else fails at the job. Our company is trying to hire within to keep costs low. God forbid they have to pay someone to get the job done right. Outsourcing the position would require my company to pay more for the position; something my boss has told an employee he doesn’t want to hear. The job description is not for someone making $9-10/hour which is what the kid right now is making. It is complete garbage that they can somehow waterdown a position that has so many responsibilities and tasks. Its like he made the job description a lot more complicated than the actual job tasks. Why would he do that??

Our old operations manager who is now primary maintenance has lost some most definite swagger. I can tell he is a different man. He says he is upset for reacting the way he did to our boss however, everyone has breaking points-both him(operations) and our boss(vice-president). Like I said before he was one of those guys who had a mindset where if he didn’t do it, it wasn’t done right. He wants to be all he can be. Then I would say go get a real job that pays for your experience level!! He said last week he measures success in dollars($). Well, then I am more successful than he is because I’m 26 and make more as a pencil pusher than he does at 40. It pains me to see him do the technical work and knowledge knowhow that he has for less but I can’t make a horse drink water I can just lead him to it. Our shop has all European(german) machines. Our manager wants a maintenance man with his kind of machines/parts knowledge he’s gonna pay for it if he ever leaves again. Like I said before he was performing BOTh jobs(production supervisor/maintenance and PM’s).

“splitting the job into two positions”…yes that is exactly what my boss is trying to do. I have told a few people that the job is for two individuals, not one single person. Anyway my boss slices it he will have to hire another kid for $9/hr to replace the kid who currently runs our drilling/milling center. I would like to attempt the position while still holding my very limited technical responsibilities. I think it would be a good career move for myself. However like I said my boss is trying to talk me out of the position. I think he doesn’t want to pay me anymore. I do support some of our shops with application engineering support so maybe he doesn’t want to lose me for that. Lately though I do not perform many customer visits. I have had a few over the last month and my boss has said he is trying to get my feet wet again.


--------

Everyone talks about bad managers. Most comments somewhat disturb me. A manager is never working up to our standards according to us. If you have a good manager please explain what makes him a “good manager”. Everyone has their opinions and is entitled to them. I hope this does not take us off on a large tangent. Maybe I cannot comment like this because I have been exposed to our manager for a year and have been tanted. I’m somewhat still afraid of him, his practices, and the way he tries so hard to analyze you and come up with his own conclussions that fit his “company scheme” of plans. Basically I don’t know what makes a good manager because frankly I don’t think I work around a good one.

-----
One of my biggest problems with our shop is that nothing is 5S’ed or at the very least standardized…. WELL!! Sure process’s and inside sales orders are standardized but not to the extent for which they should be.
Everyday seems like a giant cluster #%^&$#. Who wants to work for a company like that?

Another big part of our new process is that there is NO LEAD times! Or better let no production planning. What does that lead to? Sub par product and the ability to get very frustrated very quickly.

On a side note:
Is there a way to get training on how to quote ppl when relying? Along with other commands. I don’t understand how to underline, italicize,bold, or quote. The instructions below I cannot follow.

Thank you everyone, I will reply to other posts soon.
Farm

 

[farmENGR]

Just a suggestion but i think when someone posts we should always know how old they are. That gives us a better view of their prospective. I hope this does not offend anyone. It is not my intention

 

[KENAT]

javascriptpenindex(450,450,'

http://www.tipmaster.com/includes/tgmlinfo.cfm?w=450&h=450',1)

Is how I learned/t formatting on this site.

I'm less than 10 years older than you if that makes any difference.

As to advancing your knowledge, unless your goal is to go into management I don't see how the operations lead really helps you.

Its like he made the job description a lot more complicated than the actual job tasks. Why would he do that??

Job descriptions are often either overly detailed or overly brief, I wouldn't necessarily read to much into it. Sometimes they seem to be mostly 'boilerplate' which his little relevance to the actual job. Sometimes they're a wish list for the perfect candidate but realistically they'll accept someone that can do 1/2 the stuff they list or similar. Sometimes the person writing them probably just has verbal diarrhea.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

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(probably not aimed specifically at you)
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[farmENGR]

@KENAT
i tend to think he found all the descriptions off the internet. He doesn't seem to have been able to come up with all the tasks/micro-tasks.

I actually want to go into management. I want to go back to school for an MBA

 

[MacGyverS2000]

I actually want to go into management. I want to go back to school for an MBA

An MBA does not make for a manager, nor does it make for an engineer. Being a manager comes from having experience with people and processes... if you lack that experience, you cannot be expected to manage appropriately.

A good manager has a lot of experience with both, and commands the respect of his subordinates and superiors not through fear, but through a well-defined sense of tact and understanding.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[farmENGR]

@MACGYVER2000
how about going to school through a business program and/or taylored to management? My friend went through a information/operations management degree at the college of business and....they start right out of the gate as a supervisor gaining experience. I don't think your first paragraph is accurate.

How can i further my education then? My background is in manufacturing/machining. I suppose i should become certified in PFMEA's and/or lean or six sigma.

thanks,
farm

 

[KENAT]

Just because places are willing to employ folks with no experience as managers, doesn't necessarily mean it's a great plan.

A manager doesn't necessarily need to know how to do all the jobs of those working for them, in fact at higher levels that would effectively be impossible. However, having a basic understanding of how the world works, and being able to tell the BS'ers from herd etc. does come in handy.

If you are gung ho about getting supervisory experience then talk to you boss about combining your current role with the new ops supervision one. So not necessarily 'taking' the new job but expanding your current role to include some of it's duties. One of the shop floor guy's could perhaps still be made foreman or something.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[SLTA]

Just a suggestion but i think when someone posts we should always know how old they are.

I'm sorry, but this really made me laugh. Seriously? So we can say that the young engineers whose advice we don't like are just punk whippersnappers, and the old engineers whose advice we don't like are just old farts? Read on here long enough, and you'll be able to tell who knows their stuff and who doesn't.

I think managing is like teaching - you cannot manage that which you do not know. Get the expertise in the trenches first (perhaps a less crazy trench), and only then consider management. Perhaps also find a local young engineers' group, or a group like ASME, to get advice from others in your expertise area.

 

[bigTomHanks]

As someone who has been in an Operations Manager position I can tell you that you will be busy and "important" but it's not all glamorous. Just to give you a sample what you will have to deal with:
Adults who act like children.
You are where everyone goes to complain, and are expected to do soemthing about it.
You have to pretend to like everyone and act interested in their lives.
When something goes wrong it's your fault.
If you have a company phone your employees may call you at all times of day and night.
Some of your employees may call in for whatever reason and it falls on you to find a way to pick up the slack. Either you do their work or have to sell everyone else on working harder because someone you probably hired wants to sleep in for a day.

I do however see where you are coming from and I did the same thing that you want to do for the same reasons. After a few years of working ridiculous hours and having to deal with everyones bull crap I realized just how good engineers have it. I think your boss realizes this and his intentions are not malicious. I genuinely think that he likes you and doesn't want to see you go through the crap. Something that throws up a red flag about you is that you used email to communicate your interest in the job to your boss. You will be 100 times better off by limiting your email communication with your coworkers. Pick up the phone or goto someones work area to talk to them in person.

 

[CorBlimeyLimey]

Regarding MBAs

thread730-302708

 

[jmw]

And whenever I get addressed as "@TygerDawg", it just makes my head explode.

I'm glad you didn't reply to TygerDawg and it might be thought a few others have a similar issue.

We seem to be getting a different interpretation of the Operations guy now.




JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[farmENGR]

@JMW

His choice? Was he set up? Did the boss exploit/exacerbate the situation?How long, while everyone jockeys for the vacancy, before he is being made to pick up various of the responsibilities he has dropped but without getting back his salary?

Actually our boss knows where he lives and drove to his house later on after work that day. NO i don't think my boss exploited the situation or pushed our supervisor into the corner. I don't think he lost any pay, just responsibilities. And yes it will be very very weird for him if a 24 or even me(26) to take over his job. He would then have to answer to much much younger adults.

Yes people are jocking for positon and he is expected to perform still some of the tasks till' we find a replacement for him.

=====

Its also worth noting that our boss runs 5 small shops throughout the US. He is vice president of our US based companies. This is his homebase where i work out of. He is maybe in the office 3.5 days/week. He travels alot to the other companies to visit and resolve issues and whatever other BS he does.