Eng-Tips is the largest engineering community on the Internet

Intelligent Work Forums for Engineering Professionals

  • Congratulations waross on being selected by the Tek-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!

UNIT 3 EXCITATION FIELD FLASHING PROBLEM ANALYSIS

Status
Not open for further replies.

ngs

Electrical
Apr 27, 2004
11
0
0
US
Anyone,

I am trying to understand what the problem is and how to resolve the issue. I have copied notes on the above subject. Can someone explain.

From C. T.
Sent Tue 3/21/2006 1:31 PM
Subject: RE: FOLLOW UP: UNIT 3 EXCITATION FIELD FLASHING PROBLEM ANALYSIS

R. J. H.,

YES, I AGREE IF WE INCREASE THE VA CAPACITY OF THE TRANSFORMER, IT SHOULD NOT REQUIRE MAJOR MODIFICATIONS. AS SAID BEFORE, I LIKE TO CONCUR WITH GE, BEFORE WE PURSUE WITH REQUESTING MODIFICATIONS. CAREFUL CONSIDERATION AND TESTING SHOULD BE EXERCISE PRIOR TO IMPLEMENTATION. BETTER TO BE SAFE THAN SORRY. LET ME VERIFIED WITH GE BEFORE TAKING ACTION.


From R. J. H.
Sent: Tue 3/21/2006 12:55 PM
Subject: RE: FOLLOW UP: UNIT 3 EXCITATION FIELD FLASHING PROBLEM ANALYSIS

C. T.
You don’t need to change anything in the exciter on the DC side, since output voltage will remain the same. DC current level depends on the field resistance. Field resistance does not change as well.

Increasing the transformer size (volt – ampere) will improve voltage regulation. Improved regulation will make the excitation voltage ‘stiffer’.

Besides a bigger transformer, you may need to change the feed to the 480 volt transformer, including the 480 volt breaker. No change would be required on the exciter side.

_____________________________________________
From: C. T.
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 12:01 PM
Subject: RE: FOLLOW UP: UNIT 3 EXCITATION FIELD FLASHING PROBLEM ANALYSIS

R. J. H.,

THE 19.46 VDC IS THE RECTIFIED DC VOLTAGE OUT. THE MEASURED OUTPUT OF THE TRANSFORMER WAS 24 VAC FEEDING INTO THE FULL-WAVE DIODE BRIDGE ASSEMBLY. I PERSONALLY MEASURED THE PRIMARY AND SECONDARY OF THE TRANSFORMER AT THE TIME. IF THE PRIMARY SIDE WAS 436VAC (TRANSFORMER TURNS RATIO) THEN THE SECONDARY SHOULD ATLEAST 24.5VAC. IT IS ONLY A 0.5 VAC DROP. IF WE DECIDE TO UPSIZE, THEN THE CORE LOGIC HAS TO BE CHANGED, TIMING PARAMETERS, FIELD FLASHING COMPONENTS, SYNCHRONIZATION COORDINATION..ETC. THE SYSTEM WAS TESTED AT VARIOUS TEST OPERATIONS AT VARIOUS TEST CONDITIONS, BUT I WILL COMPLY AND CONFIRM WITH GE REGARDING YOUR CONCERNS.


_____________________________________________
From: R. J. H.
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 10:42 AM
To: C. T.
Subject: RE: FOLLOW UP: UNIT 3 EXCITATION FIELD FLASHING PROBLEM ANALYSIS

Transformer series impedance may be the biggest contributor for the voltage drop due to high secondary current. Very likely the transformer is not rated as continuous duty, and as result, it probably has higher voltage drop than one would see in a transformer that is rated for continuous duty. You may bring this up in discussion with GE. Another words, the transformer may be under-sized.


_____________________________________________
From: C. T.
To: R. J. H.
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 4:23 PM

Subject: RE: FOLLOW UP: UNIT 3 EXCITATION FIELD FLASHING PROBLEM ANALYSIS
Importance: High

ALL,

FIELD FLASHING PROCESS:
1. START IS INITIATED AND FIELD CONTACTOR CLOSES.
2. CONTACTORS 53A AND 53B CLOSE
3. MOTOR CONTROL PROCESSOR START SYNCH CHECK PROCESS.
4. IF MCP SYNCHED, THEN 53A IS OPEN.
5. MCP WILL FIRE SCR’S.
6. CHECK FOR FIELD VOLTAGE BUILD UP.
7. IF FIELD VOLTAGE BUILD UP IS TRUE, THEN OPEN 53B CONTACTS.



WHAT IS HAPPENING IS THAT MINIMUM FIELD FLASHING CURRENT OF 200 AMPS IS NOT REACHED DURING THE FLASHING PROCESS, THEREFORE RESULTING IN A FAULT CODE OF 713 LOW FIELD FLASHING CURRENT. THE MCP SYNCH PROCESS IS NEVER PERFORMED RESULTING IN THE SHUTDOWN OF THE EXCITATION SYSTEM.

AT A FIELD FLASHING VOLTAGE OF 19.46 VDC THE CURRENT THROUGH THE FIELD IS 194.6 AMPS. THE EXCITATION FEEDBACK WAS REPORTING 2403 COUNTS (FROM TREANDING REPORT), WHICH CONVERTS TO 192.3 AMPS. THE 480VAC SIDE OF THE FIELD FLASHING TRANSFORMER WAS READING ABOUT 436VAC, WHICH WOULD RESULT AN OUTPUT VOLTAGE OF 19.46 VDC. IDEALLY, AT 480VAC THE RESULTANT OUTPUT FIELD FLASHING DC VOLTAGE SHOULD BE 21 WITH A FIELD CURRENT OF 210 AMPS, THUS ALLOWING THE EXCITATION TO SYNCHRONIZE AND BUILD ADDITIONAL FIELD CURRENT FROM THE PPT.

I HAVE NOT YET DETERMINED OR ESTABLISHED MINIMUM PRIMARY VOLTAGE OF FIELD FLASHING TRANSFORMER AND WILL REPORT TO ALL ONCE A PARAMETER IS ESTABLISHED.

THANKS, C. T.



_____________________________________________
From: R. J. H.
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 1:38 PM
Subject: RE: FOLLOW UP: UNIT 3 EXCITATION FIELD FLASHING PROBLEM ANALYSIS

Steven,

I came away from unit 3 start up problem with the thought that the EX2000 flashing circuit did not allow for much variation in supply voltage and that it needs to be addressed. I also feel a couple of issues need to be investigated;

1) The field voltage applied at the brush rigging starts at around 20 volts and declines to around 14 volts before dropping out. I observed this reading off a Fluke multi-meter. What is happening?
2) Chris’ note states the field ampere reading of 15 amps. From past experience, I recall the generator field resistance to be around .09 ohms while at running speed and reading through the brush rigging. I would have expected field current to be initially close to 200 amps and decay to around 140 amps before tripping.

Even though my hands-on experience with the new exciters is limited, I walked away feeling some issues were unresolved.


_____________________________________________
From: T. C.
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 6:14 AM
Subject: FOLLOW UP: UNIT 3 EXCITATION FIELD FLASHING PROBLEM ANALYSIS
Importance: High

PROBLEM:

ON FRIDAY MARCH, 2006, APPROXIMATELY 0445AM, OPERATIONS REPORTED THAT THE EXCITATION SYSTEM WOULD NOT INITATE FIELD EXCITATION. RELAY AND ENGINEERING SUPPORT WERE DISPATCHED TO DETERMINE ROOT CAUSE. GLENN MILLER AND TROY GATES INDICATED THAT THE VOLTAGE ON THE PRIMARY SIDE OF FIELD FLASHING TRANSFORMER WAS MEASURING 440VAC. IT WAS SPECULATED THAT THE VOLTAGE WAS BELOW EFFICIENT OPERATING PARAMETERS. BEFORE CALLING GE ONSITE FOR SUPPORT, THE FOLLOWING STEPS WERE PERFORMED:

1. IN AUTOMATIC MODE WITH CORE #1 SELECTED AS THE MASTER CONTROLLER, WE TRIED STARTING THE EXCITATION SYSTEM AGAIN AND VISUALLY VERIFIED FIELD FLASHING CURRENT THE EXCITATION SYSTEM WOULD SHUTDOWN AT. THE FIELD FLASHING CURRENT WOULD BUILD UP TO 15-AMPS DC, THEN SHUTDOWN, BECAUSE THE FIELD FLASHING CURRENT SHOULD BUILD UP TO 200-AMPS.

2. IN AUTOMATIC MODE WITH CORE #2 SELECTED AS THE MASTER CONTROLLER, WE TRIED STARTING THE EXCITATION SYSTEM AGAIN AND VISUALLY VERIFIED FIELD FLASHING CURRENT THE EXCITATION SYSTEM WOULD SHUTDOWN AT. THE FIELD FLASHING CURRENT WOULD BUILD UP TO 15-AMPS DC, THEN SHUTDOWN. WE ALSO VERIFIED THAT FIELD FLASHING CONTACTORS WERE ENGAGING AND OPERATIONAL.

3. IN MANUAL MODE WITH CORE #1 SELECTED AS THE MASTER CONTROLLER, WE TRIED MANUALLY STARTED THE EXCITATION SYSTEM AGAIN AND VISUALLY VERIFIED FIELD FLASHING CURRENT THE EXCITATION SYSTEM WOULD SHUTDOWN AT. AGAIN, THE FIELD FLASHING CURRENT WOULD BUILD UP TO 15-AMPS DC, THEN SHUTDOWN.

4. IN MANUAL MODE WITH CORE #2 SELECTED AS THE MASTER CONTROLLER, WE TRIED MANUALLY STARTED THE EXCITATION SYSTEM AGAIN AND VISUALLY VERIFIED FIELD FLASHING CURRENT THE EXCITATION SYSTEM WOULD SHUTDOWN AT. AGAIN, THE FIELD FLASHING CURRENT WOULD BUILD UP TO 15-AMPS DC, THEN SHUTDOWN.

WE DETERMINED THAT THE FIELD FLASHING CIRCUIT WAS OPERATING AS REQUIRED; HOWEVER IT WAS SLOWLY BUILDING UP FLASHING CURRENT. ONCE IT REACHES A MINIMUM FIELD FLASHING CURRENT OF 200-AMPS, THE SCR POWER CONVERSION BRIDGE WOULD SYNCHRONIZE AND FIRE THE SCR’S, THEN THE FIELD FLASHING CIRCUIT WOULD ISOLATE ITSELF FROM THE CIRCUIT. I WANTED TO TREND AND DETERMINE AT WHAT CURRENT WAS THE FIELD FLASHING CIRCUIT WAS REPORTING PRIOR TO EX2K SHUTDOWN, BUT THIS WAS NOT POSSIBLE DUE TO THE FACT THAT THE ONSITE COMPUTER FOR UNIT 3 WAS NOT CONNECTED.

CALLED GE ONSITE TO OPEN A PAC CASE (C1844508) AND DETERMINE ROOT CAUSE OF LOW FIELD FLASHING CURRENT. THE FIRST QUESTION THAT WAS ASKED TO GE WAS THAT IF THE VOLTAGE OF 440-VAC WAS TOO LOW FOR FIELD FLASHING OPERATION AND THE ANSWER WAS NO. THROUGH UNIT #2 ONSITE COMPUTER, GE LOWERED THE MINIMUM FIELD FLASHING CURRENT VALUE TO 2325 COUNTS VERSUS 2495 COUNTS AND SEE IF THIS SOLVED THE PROBLEM. THIS DID NOT SOLVE THE PROBLEM. GE STILL INVESTIGATING AT THIS POINT. WE CLEANED THE COLLECTOR RINGS WITH DENATURED ALCOHOL AND TRIED AGAIN, SYSTEM WOULD STILL NOT START.

CONSULTED WITH JIM AND HE RECOMMENDED THAT WE LOWER THE MINIMUM FIELD FLASHING CURRENT VALUE TO 2000 COUNTS. CAL MENTIONED THAT THIS WILL NOT HURT THE SYSTEM IN ANYWAY. CAL ALSO MENTIONED THAT GEONSITE WAS BEING TO CONSERVATIVE ON THE MINIMUM THRESHOLD OF 2325 COUNTS.

T. G. RECOMMENDED THAT WE JUMPER THE PRIMARY SIDE OF THE U3 FIELD FLASHING TRANSFORMER TO UNIT #2. UNIT #2 WAS MEASURING 490VAC, SO CLEARANCES WERE TAKEN AND THE JUMPER CABLE INSTALLED. WE STARTED THE EXCITATION SYSTEM AGAIN AND THIS TIME THE SYSTEM STARTED AND EVERYTHING WAS BACK IN OPERATION. LATER GE ONSITE CALLED AND DETERMINED THAT THE 440VAC ON THE FIELD FLASHING TRANSFORMER WAS TOO LOW AND WAS CAUSING OUR CURRENT TO BUILD UP SLOWLY RATHER THAN RAPIDLY AS REQUIRED.

 
Replies continue below

Recommended for you

which bit are you struggling to follow? I work a fair bit with excitation systems, although not this GE design. I think I follow the thoughts within the discussion, but am a little surprised by some of the behaviour of the equipment.


----------------------------------
image.php
I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy it...
 
Since the Unit 3 field flashing transformer is working well with the Unit 2 supply, the field flashing transformer of Unit 3 from primary side to downstream components (rectifiers, cables, brushes etc.) seem to be OK.

Problem seems to be the original input supply voltage to the unit 3 field flashing trafo, which is reportedly low. Where is this supply taken from ?

May be loose connections, improper breaker contacts, bad cable terminations, loose or malfunctioning fuses (if you have them) ?




* Basically, I would like a full-time job on part-time basis *
 
It sounds like the system is rated for 480 volts and won't work on 436 volts but will work on 490 volts.
436 volts on a nominal 480 Volt system is only about 9.2% low.
I am also wondering why there is only 436 volts available when another unit has 490 volts available. With only 436 volts, do you have a serious voltage drop issue on the auxilliary feed to this unit? If so expect it to get worse and the voltage to get lower when the flashing current is drawn.
respectfully
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top