Use of Seal and Signature on Behalf of Employer 2

[BCSteeze]

I have worked at three firms now and at all three the unlicensed junior employees have been required to occasionally sign and seal documents on behalf of the only PE at the firm (small 3-15 person firms with the 1 PE who is the owner). This generally occurred when the PE was out of the office, either in the field, sick, or on vacation, and plans needed to be filed due to time constraints.

In most cases major design elements were reviewed by the PE during earlier stages of the project, but prior to final revisions which may have included minor design changes. In other cases the plans were reviewed exclusively by unlicensed senior engineers (15+ years of experience). In any case I believe the submitted designs were in compliance with all applicable codes and were in no way sub-par, but I am of course unlicensed.

I've always felt uneasy about this practice even with express permission from the PE to 'sign and seal on my behalf' and always insisted to not be personally required to do so. However, that doesn't mean the guy at the next desk has the same convictions, and ultimately I am working at a firm which has this as part of standard procedures.

OK. Questions:

Is signing and sealing on behalf of a PE a major ethics violation?
Is there ever a situation where signing and sealing on behalf of the PE is warranted?
Is this 'standard practice' in the industry?
Is this simply a symptom of working at small firms?
Is physically signing my bosses name and using his stamp any different than including a digital version of a signed stamp in a drawing?

Thank you for your thoughts in advance.

 

[zdas04]

If my stamp is on a drawing of a bridge (I've already screwed up since I have no expertise in bridge design) and it is built to that drawing and falls down under anticipated loads then someone is going to go to jail. Is it going to be the engineer that I authorized to sign my name to the drawing? No. It is going to be the P.E. who's seal is on it.

[ul]
[li]Is that a major ethics violation? Yeah, pretty major especially since gross negligence can result in jail time.[/li]
[li]Is it ever warranted? It isn't happening with my stamp. Everyone has their own risk tolerance, but I wouldn't allow my (possibly disgruntled) employees to increase my risk of financial ruin and jail time.[/li]
[li]Is this 'standard practice' in the industry? If it is, no one will admit it.[/li]
[li]Is this simply a symptom of working at small firms? Not really, I think it is a symptom of people living up to the old saw "familiarity breeds contempt".[/li]
[li]Is physically signing my bosses name and using is stamp any diferent than including a digital version of a signed stamp in a drawing? I don't have and will not have a non-secure image of my stamp. If I ever have a scanned image of it, it will be limited to something like Acrobat where I can add it as a digital signature with tractability and assurances of the source. Applying that image to a drawing in your CAD package would be a huge violation.[/li]
[/ul]

You as the non-P.E. have pretty limited liability (they can make noise and shake their fists, but if you are directed by the P.E. to do it then it is all on him). There is a chance you could end up named on an indictment, but determining what law you broke would be a challenge. The law is all about what a P.E. can/can't/is-obligated to do. Basically if your stamp appears on a bit of work that you were not in responsible charge of then you have violated the law in most states. There is not a federal licensing statute, but there are federal tasks that require a P.E. with the implication that the P.E. is covered by the various state laws. If that one ever comes to a court of law the laws will evolve again.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[BCSteeze]

zdas04,

Thank you for your reply, it always nice to hear it from someone else.

I have one more question though if you don't mind;

What about the circumstance where the PE has reviewed all of the drawings etc. but for whatever reason didn't sign and seal and then requests a subordinate to do so on his behalf?

Thanks again.

 

[hokie66]

I agree with David, but there is another side of the coin. The boss may have given permission to use his stamp and sign, but what if, after something bad happens, he denies doing it? If he is unethical, as appears to be the case, he could try to shift blame, alleging that his seal has been applied without permission, and that his signature has been forged. Don't do it.

 

[JStephen]

Note that the solution is that the "unlicensed senior engineers (15+ years)" should be licensed.

 

[zdas04]

If the P.E. has complied with the supervision/review/responsible charge regulations, then applying the stamp is just a mechanical outcome indicating his agreement. If something is flawed then it was flawed while the P.E. was in the room and his liability is appropriate. If he wants someone else to apply the stamp then I don't see the problem.

I once had a project that required 800+ signatures. My boss had me sign my own name to the 800+ pages and then write a cover letter for his signature that he had reviewed my work and was accepting responsible charge for the entire project. The lawyers were fine with that approach. That document never went to court or to the P.E. board so I don't know if the company lawyers were right or not.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[jgailla]

I agree with zdas. Signing and sealing are purely mechanical actions. What matters is the intent of the PE.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

hokie hit it before I could. When it becomes "common practice" in a company, it opens the door to plausible deniability for the PE... "I never gave him permission to sign that document!" It may not get him off of the hook completely, but it certainly casts major doubt on his culpability, as well as shifting some of that onto your shoulders.

I would have to pass on doing such an action, and if there are consequences for you because of that decision consider retaining a lawyer.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[racookpe1978]

You get the PE, you get the responsibility.

You get the stamp. Not somebody else.

 

[BCSteeze]

Thank you everyone for the feedback, its valuable and appreciated.

I suppose I need to have a conversation with the owner. Its too bad, I just left my previous firm 3 weeks ago primarily due to ethical concerns regarding working out of the PE's area of expertise and sending unqualified people to do inspections which require experience and certifications by law. I came to my current firm on the promise that I would be working in an ethical environment and made it clear in the interview that I had zero tolerance for 'grey areas' and 'what we can get away with' vs. what is required by code. Day 1 I'm hit with this signature thing, and three weeks later I am realizing that it wasn't an isolated event and is instead standard operating procedure.

bad luck maybe.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

Said behavior will continue until there is strong motivation not to continue it... such as getting sued.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[Lomarandil]

Arguing that a PE never gave permission for his stamp to be used may be a temporarily effective red herring, but most state regulations I've seen require PEs to be in control of their stamp. I think he'd get hit with that end of the stick pretty quickly. What level of control is appropriate may be up for debate -- are we talking about a locked drawer and no digital file, or can there be some level of trust involved?

Although, zdas, anyone could look up your license information and come up with a pretty convincing stamp for you in about 10 minutes. The signature would be trickier, but at that point you'd be looking at defending yourself in court with a forensic handwriting expert anyway. I don't know that not having a digital stamp is really stopping anyone who has malicious intent.

I agree with Zdas and jgailla -- the mechanical action of applying the stamp should not be an ethical dilemma. I don't think anyone here is talking about forging someone's stamp and signature onto a set of plans without direction, which obviously would be.

If the PE is telling you he has approved the documents for his stamp, and you don't think he has reviewed it adequately after a revision -- well, that may not be your place to put up a protest. I don't know what the legal precedent is for adequate review to be in responsible charge, but I've never seen it spelled out as X minutes looking at each sheet of a drawing, etc.

 

[MotorCity]

To me, this seems like a no brainer. Anyone can physically apply the stamp to paper with the engineer's permission. But the seal does not become legally enforceable until it is signed by the engineer. As such, it should be the engineer only who signs it. A signature by anyone else is a forgery....not only unethical, but illegal.

When you look at the stamp, it is impossible to know who applied it. When you look at a signature, you should be able to know you signed it and gave their approval. That's the whole point of a signature on any document, you are applying your personal approval.

 

[PeterKsiazek]

I suggest looking into the rules published by your professional association in whatever province/state you are in. For example in British Columbia, Canada where I work APEGBC expressly prohibits the application and signature of a seal/stamp by a third party (page 21 of the below pdf, section 3.6.1.2)

Link

 

[Ron]

Agree with zdas04 and hokie66....further, many US states note in the licensing law that the licensed engineer is to maintain control of his seal at all times.

 

[JAE]

Here's a few snippets from several US State's engineering laws regarding sealing. In all the states I'm licensed in (about 24) it is either implied or mandated that the engineer directly signs the seal. Anything else is illegal in my view. There is nothing in any of the state law's I've read where a surrogate can sign for the engineer.

[blue]No seal shall be valid unless the licensee signs his or her name across the face of the seal and indicates the date on which the material was signed.

All surveying maps and records, and all engineering plans, specifications, reports or other documents that are submitted to obtain permits, are released for construction, or are issued as a formal or final document to clients, public authorities or third parties must bear:
a. The signature of the licensee
b. The stamp or seal of the licensee
c. The date of signing
d. The expiration date of the license of the licensee

Each licensee shall validate a stamp or seal by signing his or her name legibly in opaque ink across the face of the impression made by the stamp or seal, e

3) The registrant shall seal and sign all original final documents which are issued to a client or any public agency. The sealing of documents by the registrant shall certify that the work was performed by the registrant or under the direct supervisory control of the registrant on ... [/blue]


Check out Eng-Tips Forum's Policies here:
faq731-376