Using another engineers drawings

[jimtheengineer10]

I have been asked to prepared an as-built set of plans for a subdivision which included water and sewer installation. The company I used to work for prepared the subdivision/water/sewer drawings. The town is requiring the details on the as-built plans to match what was originally submitted. The owner would like me to prepare the drawings because my fee is less than the other engineer. It is acceptable for the owner to request the CAD files from the other engineer and then forward them to me to have me include them on my title block and have me stamp them?

 

[zelgar]

no

 

[JNieman]

Who owns the CAD files? That is, were they part of the deliverables to the owner?

 

[coloeng]

There is nothing wrong with the Owner asking the other firm if they can have the CAD files so that you can prepare the Record Drawings. As JNieman pointed out, however, the other firm may say no if the Owner doesn't own that part of the work product. Are your fees going to be lower if you have to prepare all new CAD files? Did you leave your firm on good or bad terms? If you left on good terms, it might be possible that they will provide the CAD drawings, but don't count on it.

 

[jimtheengineer10]

I did leave the firm on good terms. I am not sure who owns the CAD files. I know the owner has requested CAD files from the other firm before and received them.

I guess my question is if the owner forwards me the files it is acceptable for me to put them on a plan with my title block? I will leave it up to the owner to request the files.

 

[JAE]

Why are you sealing (stamping) as-built plans?

Usually an engineer's seal is placed on the design set of plans which is used to bid and build the design elements.
Once they are built - a record set (or as-built) can be prepared to document what happened. These record sets are typically not sealed as the engineer-of-record had already previously done that and taken responsibility for the design.

Your task and services are not really "engineering" and don't require a seal in my opinion.

Now as to putting this information on your title block - I don't see a problem. Usually with record drawings I would include a statement that indicates that the information on the sheet was provided by others and there is no guarantee that all the information is correct as you didn't generate that information. So you are simply reflecting information on your drawings (on your title block) that others gave you and you are properly indicating that.





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[jimtheengineer10]

I believe the town wants an engineer's seal on the drawings but I will have to double check on that.

I just want to make sure it is ok for me to use the CAD files provided to me by the owner on my title block.

Thanks for the help.

 

[KENAT]

If you aren't infringing on any ownership/copyright or similar aspects i.e. the customer owns the CAD files or they are provided freely by the original company for his use in whatsoever capacity he deems fit... then probably OK.

Our title blocks have a disclaimer about the drawing being confidential information and proprietary right being involved and rights to reproduce etc. are reserved... Not sure how legally enforceable that is but just pointing out that if you get one of our drawings, unless we give you explicit permission to do so, reusing our files might make us unhappy and even lead to legal issues.

Additionally, if you copy then you will now be liable for any errors in the CAD files right?

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[dbill74]

NO.
You are preparing As-built drawings, not design drawings. I know of few, if any engineers that would take issue to you using their CAD files as a basis for as-builts. However replacing the engineer's title block is a no-no. Add to the title block that the new drawings are "As-Built" and adding your name and contact should be acceptable.

As for signing, I would avoid unless absolutely required by the city; even then a note should accompany your signature to the effect that the design is not yours. With as-built drawing you shouldn't be certifying the drawings as being any more than accurate to what was installed as a record of variance from the design drawings.

 

[cvg]

I don't believe you can legally stamp the drawings unless you were in responsible charge of the design. You can sign your name to certify that the drawings are "as-built" assuming that you were involved with the construction. The original stamped drawings should have been submitted to the city for permits. suggest you start with those and redline on the as-built changes.

 

[jimtheengineer10]

So it sounds like I should keep the other firm's title block and name on the plans and just add my name/title to the plans. I also should not have to stamp them.

 

[zelgar]

As an ethical question, the answer is an undeniably "NO". The company you previously worked for did the drawings. For anyone who has answered "Yes", how would you like another engineer to make a copy of your design drawings, and indicate they are the "AS-Built" drawings, sign and stamp them?

Even if you were the engineer who did the original drawings, you did the work for your previous employer. You were paid by your employer for your work and you do not own those drawings.

---

The only thing I can say that would be ethical would be if there were no changes in the design from the original drawings, the OP could state in his construction report would be that "As-Built" drawings were not needed because there were no deviations from the original design.

 

[JNieman]

@zelgar

In previous employment, we did just that. We supplied our customer our CAD files as deliverables, and the client stated that they like having them for updating with as-builts and future renovations / building changes / additions. They're willing to pay for deliverable CAD work and we supplied them with just that. If it wasn't part of our contract, and we were asked, after the fact, if we would supply them, it'd be a purely discretionary consideration. How much money is in the CAD work? Does it compromise our standing in any way? Does it help the competition or undercut our future prospects in any way? Some people are just much more "possessive" of CAD files than others, I find. I personally don't much care. My previous employer was very proud of our CAD department and we did great work, but at when the job is done and our contract is fulfilled, the CAD files are just archived - if the client gets more use from them, then good for them. I believe there was some standard boilerplate to effectively remove liability of incorrect CAD data and that the stamped drawings were the governing authority in case of any discrepancies.

I hope that clarifies my contingent "yes" response.

 

[msquared48]

I would definitely communicate with your former firm. If they are OK with it, then proceed, but back them up if they refuse. To do otherwise would be to burn a bridge and you do not want to do that.

I was asked several years ago to be the EOR on a condo project that my former boss from years earlier had been involved with aw the EOR. He and the client had a falling out. I contacted him and we had a frank, productive discussion. I received his blessing to proceed, with a warning regarding the client's history of non-payment. The warning was very helpful to me in that I did get paid after taking precautions.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)

 

[JAE]

In some jurisdictions you might be violating the engineering laws by signing/sealing the drawings.

cvg above has it right - unless you actually did the design then you should not - and legally can not - sign them.

Cities, owners, etc. many times ask for a seal without knowing anything about the engineering laws or what that seal really means.
Many believe that the seal somehow provides additional quality or additional assurance that things were done right.

I do like the idea suggested of leaving the old title block on there and just adding a note block in the corner that states:[red]
1. Your firm (or you) prepared these plans by incorporating data from others into the originals to produce a record set.
2. The data from others was not verified in the field by you and therefore you cannot certify that the data is fully correct.
3. The original engineer of record was: <list the name of the EOR and their firm>
4. No new engineering design was performed in the process of creating this record set of plans.[/red]




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[msquared48]

JAE has good points to observe, but that does not restrict you from checking another engineer's work to your satisfaction and approving it with your stamp, especially if you have his blessing to do so and can quiz him with any questions on the design.

At least to me, that does satisfy the original intent of direct supervision.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)

 

[cvg]

Even assuming that is is legal to do as proposed, I would assume that if he was to check and then stamp the other engineers work and take liability for it, than his lower fee would probably be a much higher fee. There is no value added, I just can't see a good reason to do that. Sometimes it is just better to say no.

 

[JAE]

Maybe I'm missing something here but I understood from the original post that this was an effort in creating record, or as-built, drawings.

If so the original construction is complete and there is no "checking" to do unless the owner wanted a peer review....which was not stated and is certainly not a part of record drawing preparation.

So any review and stamping to me is ridiculous during a record drawing prep.

jimtheengineer10 - could you please clarify here? Is the construction complete?

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[msquared48]

JAE:

You are right - it is for an as-built set, not an in progress design. My bad.

That being said, I do not see the cost differential here. It would seem to me that the cost to produce such drawings would be far cheaper if it were done by the engineer most familiar with the project and who had the CAD backgrounds to use.

I think there is something else going on here in the background.

OP: Did you originally work on this project for the EOR so that you are familiar with it too?

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)

 

[KENAT]

My assumption was that the OP is in fact moderately ethical and so would use the supplied CAD data as the basis from which to work to create the as built - not literally stamp the same stuff with new title block.

Essentially what JNieman said.

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