Value of Young Engineer 10

[FootNMouth]

All,

Every year I get glowing reviews from my project managers telling me that I am exceeding expectations and ahead of the pack in regards to my peers, however I do not feel that this is being adequately portrayed to my boss whom I have never worked with directly. I am basing this on the fact that I have only received standard raises and bonuses as well as recognition. I believe this is largely due to the fact that we are a large company and for the most part, salary and responsibilities correlate with years of experience until you become a seasoned project manager and can bring in work and profit. My questions is, is this standard procedure for engineering firms or should I begin looking for employment elsewhere, where outstanding performance is valued more from younger engineers?

Background: I am a structural engineer with four years of experience working at a large structural engineering firm in the US. I will be sitting for the PE exam this April. I have aspirations to be a great engineer and business man and would not be opposed to venturing out on my own one day.

Thank you for any tips or advice you can offer.

 

[appot]

After you take and pass the PE exam you should tell your boss that you are a PE. Do not expect a bonus/raise; do not even ask for one. If they appreciate you, they will give you what they see fit.

If you do not receive a bonus/raise, you should immediately start looking for a new job. Make sure you are selling yourself as a PE.
If you do get a bonus/raise, then you should decide if it is enough. If it is not, then ask for more or go somewhere new.

As far as venturing out on your own - I did not feel ready the first day I was a PE.

 

[FootNMouth]

Thanks Swiver. I agree, I will not be ready to venture out on my own after passing the PE. I feel that I would need around 8 of experience before even considering it.

 

[Jboggs]

Ask your boss if he would like you to send him the comments you get from those you interface with, just to help him when evaluation time comes. This would clue him in that you care. He can say yes or no. I suspect he is already aware, and he might tell you so, in which case he's telling you he expects above average performance. You can also ask him what advice he might have to help you really stand out. Tell him your desire is to produce excellent results and you would welcome any advice on how to do so.

 

[moltenmetal]

FootNMouth: if you follow swiver's advice, you will be leaving your firm, period.

When communicating with people, I find words to be most effective. If you do not use your words, there is a high likelihood that whatever you're trying to communicate will not be noticed, or will be totally misinterpreted. People are very poor at reading each others' minds. Do not expect others, especially bosses- to notice, much less acknowledge, much less compensate you for, the effort and energy you put into your career. The people making the decisions of what to pay you, will not pay you anything more than a basic level unless they know that you a) care to be paid properly and b) know that you are not being paid properly.

There are people that are so in love with their work that they don't care whether or not they are paid properly. They work uncompensated overtime in large quantity with no expectation of matching compensation, and do all sorts of things that people with a modicum of self respect are not willing to do for a for-profit enterprise. Perhaps your bosses hope you are one of them?

Not all employers are socially savvy people. They're not sitting around worrying about whether or not you feel fulfilled and appreciated- they have bigger fish to fry. If you are given raises and don't make any noise about feeling under-compensated, they will assume you are totally satisfied. If you don't value your own services enough to complain (i.e. using words) about poor compensation, they will take your services at a bargain price.

Once you have your PE, you have significant additional negotiating power. Use it. Even employers who are too dumb or preoccupied to notice your change in status and the expectations that come with it, are often smart enough to realize that finding another young engineer and training them for four years is much more expensive to the firm than paying you what you're actually worth in your fifth year. But unless you give them the opportunity, they will not do it out of the goodness of their own hearts.

You want to be treated as essential, and respected as an individual human being? You are not guaranteed to find that in a smaller firm, but you are virtually guaranteed NOT to find it in a larger one. If you do, it's an anomaly, which the "human resources" people are likely to screw up for you eventually. Working in smaller firms is not for everyone, but it's the only place that some of us can have a satisfying career.

As to going out on your own- plan on another 5 years of employment before taking that step. Best of luck.

 

[someguy79]

It may be easier to have a conversation about compensation if it's not a thinly veiled threat. If you go into a discussion with your superior saying "I want more money or I'm gonna leave." They may take offense. That doesn't help advancement later.

You could try talking to a superior to discuss how expanding your qualifications (e.g. getting a PE, other skills) will impact advancement and compensation. This sort of conversation will indicate that you want more but are willing to change/do more to get it.

 

[IRstuff]

A major asset for any engineer who wants to be successful is communications skills, which are comprised of Talking and LISTENING. You need to have a TALK with your manager to voice your concerns:
> what are the job performance criteria that determine the pay raises
> what can be done to improve the raises?
> why did the "glowing reviews" not translate into raises?
> are there perceived deficits that mitigated or contradicted the "glowing reviews"?

Then, LISTEN closely to what your manager says and consider any subtext or unspoken messages.

TTFN
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[Terratek]

PE, no PE, young, experienced, whatever; at the end of the day and after all the dust settles, your work is worth what the market will prevail for the conditions you are willing to work under. Whatever your company's policies are have no real regard to what your actual value is other than than their pay guidelines are probably *roughly* in line with their peers.

If you really want to know what your "worth" than you should dip your toes into the job market and see what kind of job offers you can get from other employers. Job hunting for the sake of curiosity is a pain in the butt, but most appraisals of valuable things take a little foot work. You might find a better job that also pays more, too. I have found that I could probably squeeze an extra 5 to possibly 10 percent higher pay by jumping ship. It appears to me, however, that it all evens out in the end. You might get a quick bump in pay, but might take longer to increase your salary from that starting point at the new company.

If you are doing a great job and getting paid fairly for it, then a PE wouldn't necessarily mean a big pay raise. The idea that you suddenly are worth 10K to 15K more per year once you get the PE is sort of ridiculous. It's not like you are suddenly able to work without supervision and peer review. Anything over a 5K bump would generally be pretty good for getting the PE.

If yo want to start your own firm eventually, look for a job that rounds you out the most rather than pays the most.

 

[1gibson]

You have just discovered that there is a difference between being appreciated and being valued. Took me about 4 years also.

You're an engineer, gather salary data for similar positions / experience levels, and take a good look at it. Then figure out the best way to approach your boss. You do not want to twist their arm into a raise. A very effective method is to present the data and ask if they think you are fairly compensated based on your quality of work. This forces them to consider their appreciation of your work in terms of your value. If it turns out you're not really even appreciated all that much, then that narrows down your options and helps you focus on your next steps.

 

[steellion]

I believe this is largely due to the fact that we are a large company and for the most part, salary and responsibilities correlate with years of experience until you become a seasoned project manager and can bring in work and profit.

I think the key is "large company". Generally, the larger the company is, the more raises and advancement are standardized based on experience rather than a meritocracy. How can your boss appreciate your extra effort when you say you have never worked with him directly? The smaller the sandbox in which you reside, the larger the impact that you have on the company (this can be positive or negative impact). Stick it out, get your P.E., then you can start looking at what else is out there if your job is not fulfilling your goals in terms of wages and/or level of responsibility.

 

[KENAT]

Large companies may base their pay on some kind of salary survey such as 'Radford' then aim to keep employees at or below something like 50th percentile for each job band. (After all if you're above average you'd surely get promoted.)

i.e. when first hired/promoted you're put in a bit below 50th percentile, you then may get one or 2 OK raises until you hit 50%ile then you can only expect around inflation raises.

So the key to above inflation raise at such an employer may be to get into the next pay band/job description e.g. Engineer 2 instead of Engineer 1...

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[moltenmetal]

To clarify a few points:

1) Yes, you should choose your words carefully, so that you don't come across as a whiny entitled kid- that's not likely to get you what you want. It doesn't hurt to express gratitude for what you've been given so far- training and experience and trust, if not good compensation. You should also listen carefully to what is said in reply. That said, don't be too careful: be clear, and ask for your manager to clarify if they're not clear, rather than trying to read through what is actually said to some kind of underlying subtext. Next to non-verbal communication cues, subtext/implication is the next least effective way to communicate. Being clear generally takes several meetings with reasonable time in between to allow the management to react. With each meaning, you can feel free to be increasingly clear- and if you're not getting results internally, you should be actively looking externally.

2) Your PE doesn't make you more valuable- but your PE does make you more marketable to other firms. Your internal value doesn't go up much, but your EXTERNAL value increases significantly- that is, assuming you're a structural engineer as your profile says- for chemicals, run of the mill mech and electricals etc. like me, our licenses mean next to nothing unless we're educated out of country, so getting one means little in compensation terms. Compensation has to correlate with external value- what the market will pay you. If they were paying you MORE than you were worth when you weren't worth much in external market terms, perhaps this is time for them to get payback from you for their sunk effort and cost in training you. If not, they're expecting a bargain from you.

 

[KootK]

I vote for playing the long game. Over the arc of your career, all that matters financially is acquiring some form of ownership. That can be owning your own company or sharing an existing company with a bunch of partners. Focus on making this happen by being a successful project manager and business developer. The rest is just noise in my opinion.

Design capability alone, even at the highest levels, has relatively little market value. That's partly why folks get MBA's.

The quickest route to prosperity, if you're truly a rockstar, will be striking out on your own. By definition, however, most of us are not rockstars. In that case, a lower risk value proposition is to target shared ownership at an existing firm where ownership seems achievable and you have a high probability of being provided with the resource that will facilitate your success. Only you can tell if your current company fits the bill.

It sounds as though you are well valued, if not well compensated, where you're at. Take care not to underestimate that. The confidence of those around you will lubricate your meteoric rise to the top. And, despite your talent and best efforts, it's not a given that will be the case everywhere.

If you need a raise, I'd recommend phrasing it like this: "This is a great organization and I'd like to be more valuable to it. How can I make that happen?". Most other permutations of this conversation will amount to putting the cart before the horse. At the risk of being harsh, if your valuable contributions are going unnoticed, consider reassessing the value of your contributions.

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

 

[jpankask]

I have to disagree with moltenmetal (sorry, but I think this is the first time ever), regarding the PE not making you more valuable. I agree with the statement for many types of engineers at most large private companies...however, as a structural engineer, having your PE license will have an immediate impact on your internal value to your company. No longer are you tied down to performing all of your work under the direct responsibility of another engineer (with a PE). You will be capable of performing your own work and stamping your own designs. Now obviously, with just 4 years experience, you won't be turned loose completely, but you should expect to start receiving smaller independent assignments and if your management chain is interested in seeing you grow as an engineer, they will give you more responsibility...still with some checks on your work.

As to your original question, as a fairly recent graduate, 4 years experience may seem like a lot to you...but to your management, you are barely out of the learning how to do your job phase. Reality is, for the first 1-3 years, you are costing the company more money than they are making off your work. Exceeding expectations and ahead of the pack with respect to recent graduates is very different than exceeding expectations and ahead of the pack with respect to 20+ years experience. Concentrate on passing your PE exam and keep up the good work. With a PE license as a structural engineer, and a little more experience, I would expect you should start seeing promotions up through the engineering levels and a little better raises over the next 8 years or so. Ask your direct boss during your next visit or performance review what you can do to take on more responsibility and earn bigger raises. As others have said, people can't read your mind. If after all of that you're still not happy with your compensation and they won't increase accordingly or tell you how you can increase your compensation, then start looking for another job. You certainly could look for another job and try to use an offer from another company as leverage to get a raise...but that puts you on a slippery slope that could have some unintended consequences...

 

[Terratek]

jpankask,

I have to disagree that engineers typically cost more money than they make a company in the first 1 to 3 years after graduation. My engineers are contributing within 6 months or less. They may not be rain makers, but they sure are handling extra work that could not be handled without them. Otherwise they wouldn't have been hired. These are engineers hired straight out of school. If the company is not utilizing profitable aspects of an employee alongside long term training, they are not managing their employees very well at all.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

I've never agreed with the "cost more in the first few years" thing, either. Sure, you're spending money training them... but they're also handling lower-level tasks that you don't want high-paid experienced engineers wasting time with. Not to mention a simple logical fact... most young engineers don't stay with a job for more than a couple of years, and if that's the case, companies would see the bottom line continually getting hammered and stop hiring them (don't underestimate the short-sighted stupidity of a bean counter).

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[KENAT]

" companies would see the bottom line continually getting hammered and stop hiring them "

Which happens,hence all the adds looking for folks with a just few years experience.

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[IRstuff]

I think that's typically a lazy and short-sighted behavior. No one really wants to spend time coddling a newbie; that's pretty normal. But, in the long term, there'll be a gap of experience, and the personnel structure becomes top-heavy.

TTFN
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[jpankask]

My statement was obviously a big generalization, and I generally shy away from making such generalities. It's obviously not applicable to every single engineer in every single company. But I do believe and have experienced this. I'm not saying that new engineers do not contribute to the company or the bottom line, nor am I saying that they don't do good work or useful work. I am saying that if you factor in a new-hire's salary plus the cost of his/her benefits (which "generally" amounts to 50%-75% of salary, i.e. insurance, social security, vacation, retirement), the amount of time they spend being trained after being hired, the amount of time they spend researching their projects to know how/what to do and the amount of senior engineers time they spend asking questions/mentoring...for the first year (most new engineers) and maybe 2 or 3 years (for a few engineers, or highly specialized engineers), they aren't really making the company much money. For some new engineers, this might only be 6 months, but every new engineer has a timeframe on the new job where they go through this process. Hopefully (for the company), this was taken care of during an internship/coop time and thus they can be more productive quicker. This is difficult to quantify and prove, and somewhat covered up by the fact that the "costs" associated are hidden/sunk costs that the company would be paying anyway, thus why you don't see "the bottom line getting hammered and a stoppage of hiring new engineers." New engineers are very valuable to the continued growth of a company and those who do stay with the company through this process usually become productive engineers.

I have been on both sides of this situation (new engineer and, later, supervisor of new engineers). My point was just to point out to the OP that while he may feel he's ahead of the pack, his direct boss may not see it exactly the same way.

 

[KENAT]

Potential risk is also that some grad Engineers that get productive quickly it's because they are doing lower level tasks, without learning much about higher level tasks.

In these cases those individuals may tend to plateau.

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