Wanted: a little professionalism here (yes this is a rant) 7

[KernOily]

OK. This is a rant. I fully acknowledge that at the beginning. But - I gotta get this off my chest.

I've only been on this forum a few weeks. As I see it, this forum is, or could certainly be, a VERY valuable vehicle to exchange information. Every day I check these forums, only to see questions that could be answered by the postee taking two flippin' minutes to dust off his thermo, fluids, or Cameron book and look up the answer. Some questions are so totally vague as to be unanswerable, and others are, simply put, someone asking for someone else to do their work done for them. Hmmm, just imagine the liability issues there... I just can't believe that some of the questions I see on here are posted by professionals!

Am I the only one here? Could we do with a bit more professionalism here? I guess I'm saying that before I ask a question, maybe I should do my homework first before I ask others to spend their valuable time to do my work for me? Aren't we all totally busy? And maybe I should leave out the pop-culture email informalities such as the use of 'u' instead of 'you', and leave those for email conversations with my girlfriend? Maybe I spent too much time in the sun this weekend? Maybe my brain got rattled from riding the dirt bike too long? Or, could be, it's Monday... %-(

I got my Nomex suit on! Flame away! Thanks!
Pete
P. J. (Pete) Chandler, PE
Principal Engineer
Mechanical, Piping, Thermal, Hydraulics
Processes Unlimited International, Inc.
Bakersfield, California USA
pjchandl@prou.com

 

[brad]

Pete,

And I thought all Californians were happy and took it easy . . .

Don't worry, I'm not lighting up the tanks; I actually agree with you. There is a simple solution, which I REALLY like to use--click the red flag!!!

I have no problems with people asking questions, even easy ones, if I believe that they are needing a nudge in a particular direction. I DO NOT find it appropriate to answer questions in which my answer can readily be used by incompetents to get a bad answer. I also refuse to do students' work for them. In these last two situations, I have no problem red-flagging a post. The site administrators of eng-tips take the red flag very seriously. (Note the red-flag button is at the bottom center of any post).

They immediately review the material, and sometimes will even bounce their ideas off members to see whether it is indeed questionable. Questionable posts are removed, and if they are flagrantly inappropriate (swearing, or students trying to get free homework) offenders are banned from the site permanently.

A little side note--regarding the "u" instead of "you", this is apparently an odd cultural quirk that is very common with Indian student techies (this comes from a close friend of mine: an Indian engineer who grew up in such a climate as a professor's son). It annoys me endlessly, but it is ultimately pretty harmless. I let it pass, but don't get offended when somebody nudges such a person into abandoning this irritating habit.

Brad

 

[Matrix]

Take it easy man,

We are all from mankind, full of imperfections and foolishness.

I agree with you but our works are hard enough to keep us with the same army discipline all the time. Don't take the 'u's and others things so seriuosly.

Cheers,

Matrix

 

[svanels]

Although the name of the forum is eng-tips.com, I have serious doubts that every member is (or will be an engineer or technician).
You cannot expect from the guy which is trying to fix his own radiator that he has an scientific knowledge about heat transfer.

We have to make sound judgement of the questions asked, and give an answer that does not endanger life and property. That is all what engineering is about.

The red flag is a very powerfull feature and I have used it various times. I do not even look at what smells like a lazy student. Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr

 

[TD2K]

I have to agree a lot with what Pete is saying. I don't object to the basic questions quite so much as he does, it's the vague, inadequately defined questions that bug me.

There's a recent one asking if duplex SS is suitable for CO2. Is this pure C02 (though it 'could' be reasonable to assume it is in the absence of any other information)? Temperature's sort of a key parameter, so is pressure in answering this question. What about other materials (like wet CO2 versus dry C02).

I see too many posts where the person doesn't take any time to even think about and define their question BUT expect people to spend time answering them. Or, they don't supply any specific information about the system and then complain later when "I" have to make assumptions about their system and complain later 'this isn't the case'. Well, duh, if you took the time upfront, you'd get better answers in return.

 

[jproj]

Pete,

I'd be lying if I said I haven't felt the same way! Besides people posting questions that could be answered with a little diligence on their part (e.g. a simple internet search, or God forbid opening a textbook!) my main gripe would be people who post something to the effect of: "I need help designing such and such... please help." followed by a (long) list of data.

A week or so ago, I came across such a post and red flagged it. The post was deleted (account locked etc.) Then yesterday I saw the same (exactly the same) post again!

(Again, the red flag came out and the post was deleted.) It's irritating as hell, but the only way to get rid of these types of posts is to keep flaggin' 'em.

Personally I'd like to light into some of these people (actually made that mistake once), but I enjoy this site too much and would like to stay a member. Besides, that would be "unprofessional" right?

jproj

 

[Haf]

Pete,

I agree with much of what you are saying. I've been a member for only a few months, but I've read many posts that make me shake my head. I think there's a few things you need to keep in mind, though:

1. Not all people that post questions here are engineers, and even if they are, their background may not be related to the question they are asking. When you don't have the proper background, you may have to ask some very rudimentary (i.e., dumb) questions. Also, if you are facing a relatively difficult problem, you may not understand the important parameters in such a way that you can pose the question intelligently.

2. Let's face it: there are some dumb people out there, and yes, some of them are engineers. This may sound mean, but it's the truth, and it affects all professions, including the "elite" ones (like doctors, lawyers, and, unfortunately, engineers).

3. Unfortunately, engineers are notorious for being bad communicators, both orally and in written form. I would contend that this weakness is more easily exposed when it comes to writing, which we are obviously forced to use in this forum. When I come across a poorly written question (or answer) that is riddled with misspellings, typos, and terrible grammar, I try to give the poster the benefit of the doubt: that they are competent engineers that can't write worth a damn (an all too common ailment). As was alluded to above, this problem is magnified when there is a language barrier involved. Remember, this is an international forum.

4. On kind of a side note: this forum is called eng-tips.com, not eng-answers.com. There is an important distinction there. I would never use information I receive on this site on blind faith. To do so is obviously foolish, since, for one thing, you don't even know the qualifications of the person answering your post. Any good engineer would thoroughly research answers and critically analyze them, especially if there are potentially significant dangers/hazards to people and/or equipment involved with the problem. A foolish engineer may not do this, but then again, their own solution is likely not much better.

But even given all of the above, I have to agree that there are still plenty of questionable posts that are really rooted in laziness. This, of course, is very irritating, but, unfortunately, we're dealing with human nature here. There are plenty of people out there that are capable of solving problems, but would rather have other people solve them for them. For people like that, sites like this are like a magnet. Not much you can do. It's kind of like driving: you're exposed to a lot of idiots when you drive. Worse yet, with each car you pass, your life is literally in the hands of the driver in the car passing you. (And, for some reason, all the idiots seem to be driving close to you.) The only way to avoid the idiocy is to stop driving. Similarly, to avoid the problems you complained about above, you'll probably have to stop logging on here. The sad fact is that ignorance, laziness, and stupidity will likely not be going away any time soon. Our only hope is to reduce the prevalence of these vices through use of the red flags.

Look at that, I started this post positively, but digressed to a cynic in one paragraph. On a light note, I'd like to relate a quote I once heard: "There's no such thing as a stupid question. Just stupid people that ask questions." I love that one.

Haf

 

[vpl]

Could I step up to the post and defend some of the stupid questions? I'm a nuke by degree who, 25 years after getting out of college, am now in a position where I need to review mechanical design work. Some of the stuff I never had, and some was so long ago that I've forgotten.

When I've posted questions (all of twice) it's been to try and get a hint of where to go look. I wish I had time to go back and do a complete mechanical engineering course, but it's not really an option. So I'm hoping for someone to steer me in the right direction.

Given the above frame of mind, I tend to look at other's posts in a similar light, that they may not have any idea where to start - not that they expect all the answers to be handed to them.

Ok, I'm ducking. Hope others contribute to this interesting discussion.

Patricia Lougheed

 

[TD2K]

Nuclear, for grins I went back and researched your posts.

You may have forgotten a lot about mechanical engineering (by your admission though that doesn't come across) but none of your posts makes me grit my teeth by a long, long shot. I don't think that is what most people here are criticizing.

There's stupid questions which I think we all have asked at one time or another (and if no one has, I've asked your share also ) and then there are questions which just come across as "I can't be bothered to do any looking up or thinking about it myself".

 

[vpl]

Thanks TD2K - both for this answer and the detailed answer to my question on steam leaks.

 

[austim]

Hi, Pete.

Top marks for a good rant.

I was going to post a minor rant about your claim to be writing on Monday, when 26 Feb 2002 was a Tuesday (at least it was in Australia). But then the preview of my response showed me that I am currently writing yesterday, so that tended to stop me in my tracks. .

Re the matter of 'dumb' questions from non engineers:

These forums are described clearly as "Technical Work Forums for Engineering Professionals". As far as I am concerned, any/all non-engineers, yet-to-be engineers and everyone seeking free detailed engineering advice enter them at their own risk of being red-flagged without compunction. (Unless their post clearly shows that there is a case for more sensitive treatment).

 

[MortenA]

to 74Elsinore:

Its quite obvious that some postings here are from syudent seeking help for home assignment. But thats fine with me, and if you dont want to waste your time just skip the post.

Best Regards

Morten

 

[MortenA]

Oh another thing:

Its not only people native to the english language who post here. Actually there seems to be a lot of people from Iranian univercities (i myself is from Denmark (a small country in Europe (a land mass east of USA));-)

This may explain some of the "language problems" that occationally can be seen.

Best Regards

Morten

 

[MortenA]

3 posts in a row... hmmm

Well heres one back at you Pete: On jan. 31 you posted a (good) question re. binary interaction parameters. I answered (the only response). But you never acknovledge that you read the answer or indicated wether it was helpfull or not. I think that a little response (not only stars) would be nice.

Best Regrads

Morten

PS checked my own postings seems im that im not much of an angle myself - but I still believe thats what we all should do.

 

[reichertc]

Haf,

Great comment on the eng-tips/eng-answers distinction. Anyone who is blindly taking information from the forums deserves what is eventually coming to them. However, even a bad or incorrect answer can trigger someone else to come up with a correct solution.

As far as bad questions with no detail, those irk me. (Hope I'm not too big of an offender here.) I think I've probably prepared four or five questions, spent the time to put down all the details, and realized by the time I got to the end of it that I could actually answer it myself. That's one of the reasons I like the forum.

Bad grammar? Sometime's when a person is under tight deadlines (and who in these forums isn't?), they cut corners and get carried away with abbreviations and unfixed typos. I know I spend more time on a report to the boss than I do on a post in a forum, so I suppose I can forgive that. Still, we are SUPPOSED to be professionals here...

Good rant!

 

[Scotto]

Pete,

Being a newbie and novice forum participant, I feel compelled to respond to your ranting of 02/27/02, particularily since I've just made my first post in another forum and it certainly could be perceived to smack of several things that set you off. Ugh...great way to start, but thanx for sharing your thoughts on good forum etiquette.

Not everything is always as it seems though. I concur with Patricia's response that sometimes one just needs a nudge in the right direction, to get started. A forum is a medium to exchange ideas and learn from others, which might just be the nudge that's needed. In my opinion, a good engineer knows how and where to effectively get the information that's needed (and also how to discern between bogus info and something useful). If that means making a quick post to a forum, looking for guidance or direction at the risk of appearing lazy, then so be it.

I'm not sure that one can always tell what effort has been already been expended in search of a solution, just from a poorly or hastily thought out question...But at least I know now what the "red flag" is for. Thanx.

My two cents worth.

Scotto

 

[svanels]

Looking for guidance or information is different than: the classic I need to deliver on friday, can somebody please calculate this for me Steven van Els
SAvanEls@cq-link.sr

 

[austim]

Scotto,

As you may have noted from my previous post, I am not averse to red-flagging posts to which I object, but I had no problems with your posting re water tower foundations. In fact I thought that you declared your position quite openly. If there were one I might have given you a chequered flag for clarity.

Now, if you had posted along the lines "I am designing the footings for a 50 foot diameter, 20 foot deep water tank atop a 200 foot high tower structure in S. California. The soil is a medium-soft sandy clay to 100 feet depth... Where can I find some free software to do this..", then my red-flagging finger would have been out of its holster faster than Wyatt Earp.

The red flag has a subtle double use. I have probably red-flagged nearly as many of my own posts as those from other members. I was advised to do that whenever I needed to correct typographical errors, which flow from my arthritic fingers on a regular basis.

 

[DeltaCascade]

Whislte blow - red flag it ..
the webmaster here is EXCELLENT ... and personally responds to your flagging and is open to any feedback (if you feel guilty later for flagging a question)