Water meters in 13R system 1

[TravisMack]

I have a project where the system was designed per NFPA 13R, 2002. The water supply is provided by a private water company. The water supply is adequate to supply the system. They have a water meter that is used throughout their distribution system. However, this water meter is not listed for fire protection use. The inspector is now saying that since the water meter is not UL listed for fire protection, the system will not be approved.

This water meter is standard for the local water authority, and they are not going to change all of their meters. The water meter data sheets indicate about 9 psi losses at our flows, and that is accounted for in the calculations.

The sprinkler contractor is caught in the middle. He can't change the water meter and the water authority is not going to change it. The fire inspector won't give occupancy. How would you address this situation. It is in Louisiana.

Thanks!

 

[PEDARRIN2]

Typically the fire inspector will have the say. He is the one who signs off on the permit.

Is the system for a single building or multiple buildings? If for a single building, you could save yourself a headache and just spec a meter.

 

[TravisMack]

It is a single building. The problem is that the local water company installs the tap and runs the piping to the property line. The meter is installed, owned and maintained by the water company. The site contractor then brings the 2" water line into the building. The fire sprinkler contractor takes off from a connection inside the building. BTW - this is already installed. It was approved in plan review, but the inspector won't pass it.

Can the sprinkler contractor go and change out the standard water meter that is supplied by the utility company? What is his liability if he does it? What if he doesn't?

Tricky situation.

T

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

Any chance purchasing your own meter or maybe they are using Hersey already?

http://www.herseymeters.com/prod_rfm.html

APPLICATIONS: The Hersey Residential Fire Meter (RFM) is specifically designed for use in residential fire protection systems or combination systems that supply domestic plumbing needs and residential sprinkler fire protection service when installed in accordance with the National Fire Sprinkler Association standards; (Standards for the installation of sprinkler systems in one and two family dwellings, manufactured homes and residential occupancies up to and including four stories in height). The RFM utilizes Hersey's unique vertical turbine measuring element to measure flow rates comparable to traditional positive displacement meters, yet provides a measuring element that allows suspended particulate matter to pass through the element unobstructed when emergency flow requirements for water are demanded. No other meter provides more flexibility and dependability for measuring water accurately in residential fire suppression and domestic use applications.

CONFORMANCE TO STANDARDS: Each Hersey Residential Fire Service Meter is tested to assure compliance with ANSI/AWWA Standard C701, Class 1. Each male and female threaded RFM has UL Approval. EnviroBrass II® options conform to the NSF 61 Standard. NFPA 13D or NFPA 13R.

<snip>

 

[TravisMack]

I am going to forward that to the contractor. The water authority uses master meter with a remote electronic reader.

When does the plumbing code govern, and when does the fire code govern?

 

[cdafd]

sounds like you need to have a sit down with his boss or higher up.

also, is this the only 13R in that ahj?? if not what has everyone else used. Just a clue.

normaly the water company wins.

as fd, we do specify the backflow

I have not questioned a meter before on 13R. and how far back in the water system does the inspector want to go, are the city pumps fire listed??????

 

[TravisMack]

There have been several in this jurisdiction. They are small group homes. This is the first time this inspector has said anything. I think it is a political ploy for something.

 

[FFP1]

I would suggest a non-confrontational meeting with the AHJ. Show him the following text from the Appendix of NFPA 13R: A.6.6.3 The connection to city mains for fire protection is often subject to local regulation of metering and backflow prevention requirements. Preferred and acceptable water supply arrangements are shown in Figure A.6.6.3(a), Figure A.6.6.3(b), and Figure A.6.6.3(c). Where it is necessary to use a meter between the city water main and the sprinkler system supply, an acceptable arrangement as shown in Figure A.6.6.3(c) can be used. Under these circumstances, the flow characteristics of the meter are to be included in the hydraulic calculation of the system.

Try to explain that the system is designed in accordance with NFPA 13R which is based on a typical domestic supply.......with these systems the fire code is applicable from the point where the dedicated fire main begins.

The following text can be found in NFPA 13: 23.1.7* Meters. Where meters are required by other authorities, they shall be listed. You will not find any such requirement in NFPA 13R.........challenge the AJH to find this requirement in NFPA 13R!

If he still fails to budge (or use common sense), you can always hire a FPE to write a letter which will put the AHJ in a much weaker position.

Good luck!

 

[stookeyfpe]

Travis

It gets worse because of state laws. See the following article from the Los Angeles Times:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-meters27jul27,1,7749381.story?coll=la-headlines-california

Pardon my french, but don't let this turn into a peeing contest.

Another thing to consider is that tap connections (connections to a municipal water supply) are commonly used to recover the cost of capital improvements (i.e., build water lines, increase the plant capacity from both the water and wastewater vantages).

With regards to a letter sealed by a FPE consider the following: A) The LA State Board for Registration of Engineers, Architects and Land Surveyors does NOT have a licensing requirement for Fire Protection Engineers. B) This is a showdown between the water purveyor and the fire protection professional. Most water purveyors are pretty emotional.

Also, and I hate to bring this up, but New Orleans is learning that its wastewater system (albeit, poorly maintained) can't handle much more at 50% capacity. The politics in this case Travis may cost the developer.

See the following article from the Houston Chronicle on New Orleans sewer and wastewater system:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/chronicle/5030659.html

I bring this little tidbit to the table because I can here the water purveyor use it in his/her defense.

 

[TravisMack]

Stookey:

Thanks for the links. I figured this is some kind of political battle going on. The project was installed by a small sprinkler contractor. The project only had about 20 sprinkler heads in it. The contractor is feeling overwhelmed by being caught in the middle.

I will pass the links on to him. Thanks for the help!!!

T

 

[Desdichado]

Maybe I am missing something, but isnt the FP system bypassing the water meter anyway? In every job I have designed a sprinkler system for there the sprinkler system doesnt have anything to do with the water meter, and is seperated from the potable water by a double check valve.

 

[Desdichado]

Oops allow me to revise the last post. I wish there was an edit button.

Maybe I am missing something, but isnt the FP system bypassing the water meter anyway? In every job I have designed a sprinkler system for the sprinkler system doesnt have anything to do with the water meter, and is seperated from the potable water by a double check valve.

What purpose is there in connecting the Sprinkler system after the water meter? So the city can charge you for water if there is a fire?

 

[TravisMack]

With a private purveyor, that is likely the purpose. This particular project has a dedicated 2" line coming into the building. The tap and 2" line to the property line + water meter is supplied / installed by the water company. The 2" line from the meter to the stub up is by the site contractor. The sprinkler guy then begins work inside the building. It is crazy that they need 3 different contractors to install a 60' run of 2" pipe. Then, for the sprinkler guy to get blasted with this stuff. It is all fun and games until someone loses an eye

 

[cdafd]

one big complaint meter needed and city wants money for the meter, sometimes alot, and city is afraid that someone will steal water.