Tek-Tips is the largest IT community on the Internet today!
Members share and learn making Tek-Tips Forums the best source of peer-reviewed technical information on the Internet!
-
Congratulations cowski on being selected by the Eng-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!
Water meters on dedicated fire protection mains
- Thread starter FFP1
- Start date
DonPhillips
Structural
I have not heard of too many meters on dedicated fire service connections, but I do not see the harm if the friction loss through the meter is accounted for in the calculations.
Theoretically, there should be never be a flow, but I have heard of folks getting some free water from these unmetered lines. Or if the system is a circulating type, like that used for HVAC, it could draw water from the public system and not be metered.
Don Phillips
Theoretically, there should be never be a flow, but I have heard of folks getting some free water from these unmetered lines. Or if the system is a circulating type, like that used for HVAC, it could draw water from the public system and not be metered.
Don Phillips
SprinklerDesigner2
Mechanical
It's the providers call.
If it's an FM/CT meter the friction loss is usually minimal just a pound or two but total installation costs on these things can run ten to twenty thousand dollars the downside to this being owners that look for ways to get out of having sprinklers.
Like a night club of 4,999 square feet. Had this happen in Ohio once where an 8" tapping fee was $164,264.00 to supply sprinklers for a mattress warehouse. This was just the permit fee not including any material or labor to physically tap the main.
The owner went nuts and divided the warehouse into 10,000 sq. ft. sections with fire doors to escape the fees. This was several years before the disastrous mattress fire in Charleston but exact same thing.
If it's an FM/CT meter the friction loss is usually minimal just a pound or two but total installation costs on these things can run ten to twenty thousand dollars the downside to this being owners that look for ways to get out of having sprinklers.
Like a night club of 4,999 square feet. Had this happen in Ohio once where an 8" tapping fee was $164,264.00 to supply sprinklers for a mattress warehouse. This was just the permit fee not including any material or labor to physically tap the main.
The owner went nuts and divided the warehouse into 10,000 sq. ft. sections with fire doors to escape the fees. This was several years before the disastrous mattress fire in Charleston but exact same thing.
I would love to know how somebody can review a plan, and say 'oh, it's an 8" service, that's gotta be a least $164,264.00 in permit fees'. Did this include a meter?
In Chicago and surrounding areas the water is metered/billed with the small meter on the bypass of the backflow for comercial projects. Recntly changed to full bore meters on the domestic service before the tee to fire protection for residential. Stops people getting free car/truck washs with a hook up to the conviently located inspector test
. The backflow bypass meter doesn't help with the reduction of permit fees for the tap. I don't know what those run here our what factors weighs in though I've heard those can get out of control also.
In Chicago and surrounding areas the water is metered/billed with the small meter on the bypass of the backflow for comercial projects. Recntly changed to full bore meters on the domestic service before the tee to fire protection for residential. Stops people getting free car/truck washs with a hook up to the conviently located inspector test
. The backflow bypass meter doesn't help with the reduction of permit fees for the tap. I don't know what those run here our what factors weighs in though I've heard those can get out of control also.
SprinklerDesigner2
Mechanical
I would love to know how somebody can review a plan, and say 'oh, it's an 8" service, that's gotta be a least $164,264.00 in permit fees'. Did this include a meter?
No, it did not.
All that is is the tapping fee not including any meters, taps, material or backflow preventors. To the tapping fee you can easily add another $40,000.00 for an 8" FM-CT meter and backflow preventor that must be installed in a specified (it's elaborate) concrete pit.
Upper Arlington, Ohio but it just isn't Upper Arlington it's any area around Columbus, Ohio that uses Columbus water.
They say it all the time while keeping a straight face too. Here's the fee schedule.
Tapping fees on page 9. If you have a 10" or 12" tap things really start to get serious.
Little town of groveport is even worse their 8" fee is $191,100.00.
If the sprinkler contractor is to include tapping fees in his bid it's not something the estimator wants to miss.
Now to be fair if you are inside the city of Columbus, inside the city limits where you are subject to pay all manner of other taxes and fees, tapping fees are greatly reduced by half so an 8" tap is a real bargain costing only a little more then $81,000.00.
The sad thing is I've seen general contractors do anything to avoid having to install sprinklers because of the tapping fees. You wouldn't believe the number of warehouses that are cut up into small sections with firewalls and doors galore.
It was the tap fees that drove the design of the sprinkler; you would do anything to decrease the size of the tap. I hated working there because I was forced to do things that, while done correctly, I felt should have been done differently. When we think of a large merchantile with two or three manifolded risers most of us automatically think a 6" or 8" underground run-in regardless of the water supply available. Not with tapping fees such as these though. If you could design a system with a 3" or 4" tap that is exactly what you did.
Sorry if I got off topic but this has always been one of my sorest points. I bristle when government does whatever it can do discourage the use of automatic sprinklers using it as a way to generate revenue.
No, it did not.
All that is is the tapping fee not including any meters, taps, material or backflow preventors. To the tapping fee you can easily add another $40,000.00 for an 8" FM-CT meter and backflow preventor that must be installed in a specified (it's elaborate) concrete pit.
Upper Arlington, Ohio but it just isn't Upper Arlington it's any area around Columbus, Ohio that uses Columbus water.
They say it all the time while keeping a straight face too. Here's the fee schedule.
Tapping fees on page 9. If you have a 10" or 12" tap things really start to get serious.
Little town of groveport is even worse their 8" fee is $191,100.00.
If the sprinkler contractor is to include tapping fees in his bid it's not something the estimator wants to miss.
Now to be fair if you are inside the city of Columbus, inside the city limits where you are subject to pay all manner of other taxes and fees, tapping fees are greatly reduced by half so an 8" tap is a real bargain costing only a little more then $81,000.00.
The sad thing is I've seen general contractors do anything to avoid having to install sprinklers because of the tapping fees. You wouldn't believe the number of warehouses that are cut up into small sections with firewalls and doors galore.
It was the tap fees that drove the design of the sprinkler; you would do anything to decrease the size of the tap. I hated working there because I was forced to do things that, while done correctly, I felt should have been done differently. When we think of a large merchantile with two or three manifolded risers most of us automatically think a 6" or 8" underground run-in regardless of the water supply available. Not with tapping fees such as these though. If you could design a system with a 3" or 4" tap that is exactly what you did.
Sorry if I got off topic but this has always been one of my sorest points. I bristle when government does whatever it can do discourage the use of automatic sprinklers using it as a way to generate revenue.
DonPhillips
Structural
Those tap fees are typically system capacity charges. The utility "banks" it to pay for expansion of the system. If no new taps were being made, the system would not need to expand.
As new taps use any excess capacity of the system, eventually, the current users would have to be assessed a fee (directly or through increased usage fees) to pay for the expansion. Tap fees are a way to have new users pay for this future expansion.
I, personally, would rather see taps for fire service not be charged such a high rate. I understand less water is used in a sprinklered building stopping a fire than firefighting operations in a non-sprinklered building. And the water system only has a fraction of the total flow related to fire fighting compared to all other uses.
Don Phillips
As new taps use any excess capacity of the system, eventually, the current users would have to be assessed a fee (directly or through increased usage fees) to pay for the expansion. Tap fees are a way to have new users pay for this future expansion.
I, personally, would rather see taps for fire service not be charged such a high rate. I understand less water is used in a sprinklered building stopping a fire than firefighting operations in a non-sprinklered building. And the water system only has a fraction of the total flow related to fire fighting compared to all other uses.
Don Phillips
SprinklerDesigner2: Thanks for the links to the prices. Completely mad! I can understand your frustration.
Don: Thanks for the insight as to how they can 'justify' those charges though it doesn't seem to hold water - no pun intended. After all I'd imagine the annual flow through a 2"/2½" Domestic line (a couple of showers, bathrooms, a small canteen, 20 person office)could feasibliy flow more water on an annual bases since it would be being used everyday. Thereby having an increased demand on the system than the Fire protection. Seems the utility providers should bank money based on water useage would be logical.
Don: Thanks for the insight as to how they can 'justify' those charges though it doesn't seem to hold water - no pun intended
. After all I'd imagine the annual flow through a 2"/2½" Domestic line (a couple of showers, bathrooms, a small canteen, 20 person office)could feasibliy flow more water on an annual bases since it would be being used everyday. Thereby having an increased demand on the system than the Fire protection. Seems the utility providers should bank money based on water useage would be logical.
SprinklerDesigner2
Mechanical
Don: Thanks for the insight as to how they can 'justify' those charges though it doesn't seem to hold water
=================
A number of years ago a privately owned utility (The Ohio-American Water Company) attempted to do the same thing and the public utilities commission took the private utility to court. The utilities commission won a judgement in effect saying private utility companies could not charge more then actual costs involved. The judgement does not apply to public owned utilities.
Then you couple this to the Ohio sprinkler plan review fees that are among the highest in the nation even surpassing New York City.
They aren't bashful.
$200.00 application fee plus $4.50 per hundred square foot (always rounded up to the nearest 100 sq. ft.).
A sprinkler plan review for a 100,000 sq. ft. warehouse will cost an even $4,900.00 because the risers have flow switches so they charge the electrical processing fee too.
$200.00 + $4,500.00 + $200.00 = $4,900.00.
Plan review time can be anywhere from 4 to 12 weeks.
=================
A number of years ago a privately owned utility (The Ohio-American Water Company) attempted to do the same thing and the public utilities commission took the private utility to court. The utilities commission won a judgement in effect saying private utility companies could not charge more then actual costs involved. The judgement does not apply to public owned utilities.
Then you couple this to the Ohio sprinkler plan review fees that are among the highest in the nation even surpassing New York City.
They aren't bashful.
$200.00 application fee plus $4.50 per hundred square foot (always rounded up to the nearest 100 sq. ft.).
A sprinkler plan review for a 100,000 sq. ft. warehouse will cost an even $4,900.00 because the risers have flow switches so they charge the electrical processing fee too.
$200.00 + $4,500.00 + $200.00 = $4,900.00.
Plan review time can be anywhere from 4 to 12 weeks.
SprinklerDesigner2
Mechanical
Plan review time can be anywhere from 4 to 12 weeks.???????????
Review is only by shelf number and the quicker you get a shelf number the quicker your plans got reviewed.
A few years ago it got so bad some contractors got into the habit of submitting drawings, any drawings would do, just to receive a shelf number. Once you had a shelf number you could finish up your real drawings in three to four weeks then "swap em out" claiming something changed without losing your place in line.
I had a 40,000 sq. ft. building where I did just that. Made up a title sheet with plot plan, took a couple old WalMart drawings as filler (this wasn't a WalMart job) and some hydraulic calcs from a country club. It was meant only to fool the clerical lady behind the counter so I could get an early shelf number. Hand carried it to state so I could get a shelf number figuring I had at least 3 to 3 weeks until these plans would be picked up for review.
A week later the mailman drops off a package with a permit and plans stamped "Approved". A real dilemma, what do I do now? Somehow they must have got out of order (I never called to ask) but in my defense I know I was not the only one playing this game.
Review is only by shelf number and the quicker you get a shelf number the quicker your plans got reviewed.
A few years ago it got so bad some contractors got into the habit of submitting drawings, any drawings would do, just to receive a shelf number. Once you had a shelf number you could finish up your real drawings in three to four weeks then "swap em out" claiming something changed without losing your place in line.
I had a 40,000 sq. ft. building where I did just that. Made up a title sheet with plot plan, took a couple old WalMart drawings as filler (this wasn't a WalMart job) and some hydraulic calcs from a country club. It was meant only to fool the clerical lady behind the counter so I could get an early shelf number. Hand carried it to state so I could get a shelf number figuring I had at least 3 to 3 weeks until these plans would be picked up for review.
A week later the mailman drops off a package with a permit and plans stamped "Approved". A real dilemma, what do I do now? Somehow they must have got out of order (I never called to ask) but in my defense I know I was not the only one playing this game.
DonPhillips
Structural
It cannot be 4-12 weeks in Ohio:
OBC 106.1 and ORC 119 requires that either a Certificate of Plan Approval (a license) be issued within 30 days or an Adjudication Order be issued denying the license, and giving the reason for the denial. The denial, by law, can be appealed to the Ohio Board of Building Appeals.
If a plan review takes more than 30 days, bring it to the attention of the Building Official to see what happened. The second time the a plan review is late, perhaps you file an appeal.
Don Phillips
OBC 106.1 and ORC 119 requires that either a Certificate of Plan Approval (a license) be issued within 30 days or an Adjudication Order be issued denying the license, and giving the reason for the denial. The denial, by law, can be appealed to the Ohio Board of Building Appeals.
If a plan review takes more than 30 days, bring it to the attention of the Building Official to see what happened. The second time the a plan review is late, perhaps you file an appeal.
Don Phillips
- Status
Similar threads