Water Softeners 1

[Lion06]

I posted a similar question about a year ago in the Civil Engineering forum and didn't get the level of technical responses that I was hoping for. I'm hoping that chemical engineers may have a better technical understanding of the technologies of water softeners.

Are there any softener types that are better/worse than others? Are there gimmicks?
The main types I'm looking at are a Pelican (salt-free) system, and a salt-based system. I'm hesitant to go with the salt-based system because of the flushing of the system. I'm not sure how frequently that occurs, but we do have a septic system so it's not the best idea. The salt-free system doesn't require flushing (is that an accurate statement?) so I'm leaning that way, but I want to get some opinions before I spend the money.

 

[PEDARRIN2]

Basically salt softners have media which have sodium ions on the surface. When the hard water with calcium flows over the media, the media lets go of the sodium and attracts the calcium. When the media gets "full" from the calcium (usually determined from your hardness and anticipated water usage) the back wash occurs which basically reattaches the sodium back onto the media, letting the calcium go out the backwash - with the extra sodium in the solution.

The back wash is based upon the hardness in your water - say 15 grains per gallon (1 grain per gallone is ~17 ppm calcium ions) for instance and an assumed amount of water you would use during a day - say 1000 gallons. So in a given day, with these numbers, the softener would remove 15,000 grains of hardness The softener media has a certain capacity of being able to remove the hardness - say 300,000 grains. So in this example the softener would backwash about every 20 days.

When I design softeners for commercial applications, I typically size them to backwash at most once per day. When I had one in my home, it backwashed about once per week.

I read the website about the salt free (Pelican) and I am not sure if it is based on sound science, but it appears that it converts the hardness molecules (calcium carbonate) through some type of friction across the media to a form/shape that will not adhere to the sides of your pipe. It sounds similar to the magnetic types of water softeners that use magnetism to keep the hardness molecules from forming scale. Again, I don't totally understand the "science" behind it to have a real opinion.

The magnetic type of water softener has a lot of anectdotal evidence but no scientific backing - no testing, no support. I don't know if the salt free has any scientific backing, but it must have anectdotal evidence for people to still be selling them.

From the website, the salt free system does not require flushing.

I wouldn't let the backwash of a salt system go to a septic tank. I did some research a few years ago when I was on a septic system, and while the data was somewhat inconclusive, the side that said it was ok to send the backwash to a septic system was funded by the water softener industry - so I am not sure it was unbiased.

I wouldn't think there would be a problem with sending the backwash to the sanitary sewer since you are typically charged on what water you bring in - not necessarily what you send out.

See if you can find one that is relatively cheap and see if it works. Soft water definitely feels/acts different in the shower and sink. If it doesnt work you can take it out and try the other type.

 

[Lion06]

Thanks for the post! I appreciate the input. I think I'll try to find one that has an in-home trial period and test it out for a week or so.

 

[bimr]

Your question on the civil forum was "do water softeners work?" The answer was yes.

Now you are asking whether water gadgets work. The short answer is that the water gadgets do not work and you will waste your money. If you want a detailed answer, keep reading.

Scroll down the list below and you will find Pelican NaturSoft on the scam page:

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/gallery.html

If you still don't believe it, look here for more scam information:

http://www.csicop.org/si/9801/powell.html

If you think the magnetic gadgets are worth a look, go here and you will find someone that took the time to do a detailed scientific study:

http://www.hnd.usace.army.mil/techinfo/CPW/PWTB/082201_PWTB 420-49-34 Magnetic Water Treatment1.pdf

If you want to learn some chemistry look here:

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/clusqk.html#REFS

"Why do I waste my time on this stuff? Chemistry is my favorite subject, and I hate to see it misused to confuse, mislead or defraud the public." by Stephen Lower, a retired faculty member of the Dept of Chemistry, Simon Fraser University Burnaby / Vancouver, Canada

The water quality improvement industry has information on the effect of the salt in softener effluent and clearly state that the salt does not harm septic tanks:

http://www.wqa.org/sitelogic.cfm?ID=363

This conclusion is supported by the Ten States' "Recommended Standards for Individual Sewage Systems" The states have concluded that even in Montmorillinite clay soils, "the disposal of brine wastes from water softening equipment does not have a significant effect upon the permeability of soils suitable for soil absorption systems."

 

[PEDARRIN2]

bimr,

When I did some research about 7 years ago - when I had a failing leachfield and was wondering if my softener had any thing to do with it, I found some information that tended to indicate the higher sodium levles of the softener effluent had adverse affects on the permeability of leachfields.

I also read the studies by WQA and others that stated otherwise. But I felt I had to take those studies with a grain of salt (no pun intended). WQA promotes and represents water softeners and their manufacturers. I would assume they have a vested interest in showing that softeners do not harm leachfields.

I am not saying they are inaccurate or misleading - just doubt their objectivity.

Do you know of any study/report that was not performed/sponsored/funded by WQA or similar organization that shows that higher sodium levels do not impact leachfields. I would like to see it.

 

[bimr]

Whether the wastewater from water softeners damages the soil or not is a separate issue from the water gadgets. Fallacious gadgets have been around for over 50 years and it has been proven without a doubt that they do not work.

It is interesting that you acknowledge that there may be an inherent bias from the water quality industry when they fund a report on septic system brine disposal but fail to acknowledge there may be a bias when technically limited sales agents promote and scam the public with these water gadgets.

Regarding the wastewater from water softeners:

http://www.cwwa.ca/WaterSoftenerStudyFinalReport.doc

Great Lakes - Upper Mississippi River Board (GLUMRB) is not sponsored or affiliated with WQA.

http://10statesstandards.com/members.html

Look on page 51 of their stbadard:

http://10statesstandards.com/sewagesystems.pdf

 

[PEDARRIN2]

I was only addressing my reluctance to accept a possible biased report - based upon not having seen much of anything else. Maybe my search was not complete enough.

I know the salesman of the other types of water treatment have a definite bias and that they are promoting quack science.

I will read the information you provided.

 

[Lion06]

Is there a concensus that a salt-based softener is the only kind with any science behind it, and the only one that really works (taking the reverse osmosis out of the picture due to the price alone)?

 

[PEDARRIN2]

The salt-based softeners are the ones with science behind them.

The others have not been analyzed in controlled and repeatable scientific tests.

Although, if you talk to some users of some of the other types, they will swear by them. It might be situations where their particular water chemistry, flows, etc. just happen to match what the sytem could do, i.e they got lucky. I wouldn't try them, myself, though.

And looking at the other sources that bimr referenced, I would say that you shouldn't have a problem sending the backwash to your septic system.

Stick with the salt based softener.

 

[Compositepro]

I would not put salt in my septic system due to concern for killing the bacteria. This should be drained to a separate drain pit. I don't know if this might violate code in some areas but I know it is commonly done.In my last house only the hot water was softened.

 

[PEDARRIN2]

Read some of the referenced documents bimr posted.

They indicate that the bacteria are not affected.

Most local codes - at least the ones I am familiar with - won't let you not direct the backwash to septic/sanitary. Not to say it isn't done - but it is not allowed.

I would only soften the hot water when the hardness was minimal - would recommend against it in a commercial project. Problems will occur at faucets/fixtures that receive cold water - you will still get the precipitation at the spout.

 

[bimr]

Most of these gadgets are the products of deluded inventors and these people, strange as it may seem, actually believe in them.

The consensus is that there is not a single major industrial plant or power plant that has one of these gadgets in service.

It is one thing to use a high pressure sell job on a housewife, it is a more difficult proposition to sell one of these gadgets to someone that has techical knowledge of water treatment and has thousands of dollars worth of equipment at risk.

 

[Lion06]

I'm not concerned about the salt in the septic system. I'm concerned about pumping all of that water into it on such a regular basis. We've been encouraged to not do more than 2-3 loads of laundry at a time in an effort not to dump too much water into the septic system at once. When a salt water softener backwashes it puts much more water than that directly into the septic system - and this is a regular occurence - I can't imagine that is good for the system.

 

[PEDARRIN2]

If the concern is the amount of water (2-3 loads of laundry) being pumped into the system, you might have an undersized septic system.

That is the problem I had with my septic system. The tank was too small and the leach field was overgrown with trees and brush. For awhile, I couldn't even let the water from the shower go to the septic tank.

Good luck.

 

[bimr]

While the volume of water discharged by a water softener during the regeneration process will vary depending on water pressure, pipe diameter, and softener design, water softeners typically use 40 to 70 gallons of water during regeneration.

http://www.caitechnologies.com/wate...ater-softener-discharge-on-septic-systems.htm

Front-loading washing machines use between 20 and 33 gallons of water per cycle, while top-loading machines may use 35 to 55 gallons.

http://riversideca.apogee.net/homesuite/library/watercons/?utilid=riversideca&id=3276

You can cut your wash water from laundry in half if you go with a front loading machine and your clothes will be cleaner.

 

[Lion06]

bimr-

Is that true? I've heard the water running (like a river running through the pipes) for upwards of 45 minutes during the regeneration. At a flow rate of (3) gal/min, that's a lot of water. Granted, I didn't realize how that compared to a washer, but it's still a lot of water.

 

[EdStainless]

softeners on re-gen make a lot of noise because the water is flowing through a control valve with small ports. It is also following a torturous path, hence the noise. It isn't that much flow.

There are new softeners out that re-gen based on the actual hardness of the water at the discharge, not days since last or measured water flow (with an estimated hardness factor).

We dump our re-gen to the septic field, it was built that way. Some localities now require that it be dumped to a dry well. We are dumping about 60 gal every 6 days. Before the kids went to college it was every 3 days.
We don't worry now, our old top load washer used 50 gal a load, our new front load uses 20 and washes better. The catch, it is a $1,000 machine with a 7 year design life.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Plymouth Tube

 

[bimr]

EdStainless more or less answered your question. Water is generally inexpensive at $1 per thousand galllons.

There are a number of things that you can do. You can set the house water system up so that you do not soften water for the entire house, you can also set up a bypass softening system and blend for a partial softening system, etc. to reduce the usage of softened water (and decreased waste).

If you can swing it, the front loaders are the way to go. The clothes are generally cleaner because the soap/water ratio that is applied to the clothes is much stronger. THe front loading machines also spin faster to wring out the moisture so that the clothe drying energy is somewhat reduced.