What is the Most Effective Software for Site Design? 2

[jchilliard]

I have been doing environmental work for 5 years since I finished school. I am just starting to get into Site Design and need some help setting up our computer software. My engineering is a bit rusty because I have mostly been doing project management and fighting with regulators. What is the best computer program and tool package to generate site design figures (lot layout, roads, storm & sanitary sewers, etc...). Is AutoCad (by Autodesk) the industry standard, and if so, what version is the most practical to purchase? Thanks for the advice.

 

[francesca]

AutoDesk LDD, Microstation and Terramodel are all more-or-less on a par. It really depends what the rest of your company, your local authorities, etc. are using. For instance, there's no point in buying LDD if your surveyors use Microstation. If you're going to be working (transfering files) with architects a lot, then LDD might make more sense.

The company I worked for doing subdivision design used Terramodel because TDOT had indicated they were going to require it. They purchased the software as a result, and then TDOT did an about face and required Microstation instead. The transportation department then switched to Microstation accordingly, but the rest of the company remained with Terramodel. You'll probably find that most companies have a story behind how they came to be using the software they're using, and "it's the best" or "it was the cheapest" won't always be at the root of it.

 

[jchilliard]

Thanks. What are the capabilities of terramodel. After reviewing the website it looks like it does great for importing survey data and designing roads, but does it have the capabilities to easily create storm & sanitary sewer drawings and specs? I assumed that there were some add in packages or tools that assist in creating this drawings.

 

[francesca]

The version I used had the storm/sewer design add-ins, yes.

 

[LHA]

Francesca is correct, make sure you use what most folks you will need to work with use. Those three are the industry standards. I've use TMOD, didn't really like it, but it is adequate.

For any software, there will be extra modules for things like pipe design, etc.

See this:
thread158-80684

Engineering is the practice of the art of science - Steve

 

[skmcneill]

I've used a few software packages for site design and other things in my career. I'm a little biased because I "grew up" on InRoads but I also used GEOPAK and was exposed to several others. Out of all of the software that I have seen, InRoads is the best.

InRoads is compatible for use on AutoCAD and MicroStation. These days, that doesn't make a lot of difference for MicroStation users since V8 natively supports DWG files. Nonetheless, it is a great software package to use in a office where different experiences exist.

My experience is that almost every engineering office has AutoCAD users and MicroStation users. The primary reason is that AutoCAD is typically taught in college or even high school. Bentley has been totally ignorant in that fact and doesn't market their software in the education environment. What's the better package of the two? My vote is MicroStation but that are plusses and minuses to both sides. Realistically, it doesn't matter which one you choose. Well, except when your client requires a particular deliverable. Many DOTs require MicroStation files. I understand that AutoCAD will soon be able to handle DGN files and, if that's the case, it comes down to whichever package YOU are more comfortable with.

Back to the Civil Engineering software.

GEOPAK is a pain to learn. I won't argue it's power and customization ability but it's a miserable product to teach someone to use. Even given ample software experience, it took me months to get to where I felt proficient in using GEOPAK. The software has countless bugs in it that causes repeated crashes among other things. It's just not the software I would choose.

InRoads, on the other hand, works similar to any other Windows software package. It has menus. It has toolbars. You can customize macros. The data is "intelligent." It just has a lot of options that you may or may not use. The best thing about it is the ease of use (as easy as any engineering software can be).

The best thing for you to do is to contact Bentley (who owns GEOPAK and InRoads) and get them to give you a demonstration. Some of their stuff can be retrieved online from

http://www.bentley.com.

 

[LHA]

skmcneill states, "I understand that AutoCAD will soon be able to handle DGN files and, if that's the case, it comes down to whichever package YOU are more comfortable with."

In a past job our company was split between AutoCAD and TMOD. I was the only person who knew both. Trust me, no matter how many claims of one software being "completely compatible" with another, you will spend countless hours doctoring up linetypes, fonts, hatches, etc. to transfer from one to the other. Currently, my company is split betwee ACAD and Microstation. I don't use dgn, but I hear the same complaint from the few who use both.

Point being, if you are setting up from scratch, really drive this point home with the bosses...pick ONE software and force ALL employees to use it.


Engineering is the practice of the art of science - Steve

 

[jchilliard]

Thanks for the incite. Has anyone used Bentley's PowerCivil program. It look like it would be perfect for what I need (we are only going to be involved in residential subdivision development). Any thoughts?

 

[TerryScan]

jc,

It's tough to shop for civil software. It is usually such a big investment, that once a company decides on a package...it is very expensive to switch (software is expensive and so is TRAINING). Because of this, few people have really worked with a lot of different packages in order to compare them. Most people like what they use (unless it is total garbage).

I used a package for 8 years that is now defunct (PacSoft) it was great. I now use Carlson's Civil 3d (check it out at

http://www.carlsonsw.com).

I have spoken with people who have used both Carlson and Land Desktop. They say there are pros and cons to each package.

One thing I do like about companies like Carlson is support. When I have found a glich in a new release and sent email, I have often gotten a patch THE NEXT DAY. This is a bit different from the scenario with packages like LDD.

 

[BelspringKen]

LDD will import a .dgn file. As others have said, you will have to fix text and linetypes in many cases after import.

 

[ecwcee]

Looks like I'm about a week late on this one but I thought I'd throw in my two cents. I work for a large engineering firm in Wisconsin that uses both AutoCAD and MicroStation. I have the unique position that in addition to being a licensed engineer I am also a computer programmer and have had the opportunity to learn and understand a lot of the underlying processes and developments.

We primarily use MicroStation with Eagle Point, with the fact that it is a state DOT requirement being a major factor. My focus is in civil site development and I have been VERY impressed with MicroStation and Eagle Point. Everything works very well and Eagle Point has proven to be a fantastic tool for site work. I'm not clear on what your residential work will cover, but I have used Eagle Point extremely effectively for earthwork balances in site work. I've even been able to use it to create multiple subsurface layers based on soil boring data to get quantities of specific types of soil coming out of my cuts. Roadway and utility profiling in Eagle Point has also been very successful for us; once you learn how to generate alignments in Eagle Point you can very quickly create full plan sets including stationed plan and profile sheets. Bottom line here is that Eagle Point is a versatile and valuable tool, it also combines with either MicroStation or AutoCAD.

Bentley may not pay any attention to the educational market, which makes me sad because students really should have the opportunity to learn it, but they have developed some cutting-edge software that looks pretty good. This may interest you greatly for your residential development, because it could really be a wow-factor for your clients. I took a look at the demo when it was first released, but Bentley created an add-on for MicroStation that can export your design data into 3D Google Earth models. I loved Google Earth, and when I downloaded a played with Bentley's demo of the Google Earth tool I was impressed. Since we're primarily a municipal firm we don't have much need for it, but like I said, a residential developer could probably get a lot of WOWs with something like this. Here's a link to it on Bentley's site:

http://www.bentley.com/en-US/Products/MicroStation/Google+Earth+Tools/Overview.htm

All right, I think this post is getting a bit long. My recommendation with stand with MicroStation, and adding Eagle Point makes it the perfect tool for all types of civil/site modeling. One major point to keep in mind (I'm not sure how many companies have this standard) is that your CAD machines should really have dual monitors. My experience with MicroStation is that it really seems to be designed for this method, and I've read studies that show no matter what you're working on, productivity will be increased by at least 30% with dual monitors.

Any more questions, I'd love to contribute more

Eric

 

[skmcneill]

Couple of things to follow-up. I don't disagree about finding a solid software package and sticking with it. You always lose something if you're changing file formats or whatever. But having the capability is nice, too.

Taking a MicroStation drawing and exporting into Google Earth is one of the neatest things I've done. It's quick and easy once as you learn the process. Bentley could do a better job of automating it but that's beside the point.

I wish I had an example with me to illustrate but suffice it to say that the usefulness of it depends on the application but it is always a great tool for a variety of projects. I used it for residential subdivisions quite often in order to produce a map to go along with the SWPPP. From the linework added to the aerial photograph in Google, you could easily determine existing land uses, location of certain features, and other things. I sometimes used it in the field to match where I was to a set of plans. In other words, the tool is very versatile.

 

[rmadrid]

Any software that you are familiar with will work. Of course the most widely used is Autocad LDD but then of course depending on what part of the world or country your in it may be Microstation or Eaglepoint. Its all about who will be using it and how much design do you want it to do for you. When I lived in California Autocad LDD was the most common in Texas Microstation is what almost everyone uses. Is there one better than the other well Microstation is great for design but terrible when it comes to production drafting and so is Terramodel. Eaglepoint and Autocad LDD are better at production drafting and lack a few design tools but there are a thousand ways to get the job done its more flexible for use.

 

[TerraSouth]

I ordered a seat of Bentley's PowerCivil about 4 months ago. I have over 13 years experience in LDD. I decided to make the transition because of AutoCAD questionable marketing tactics and I wanted to change directions.

Just let me say the learning curve for PowerCivil is VERY steep. Learning this software is not for the faint of heart. The frustation level of just trying print out a simple plan and profile sheet is insane! PowerCivil has SERIOUS plan production issues. AutoCAD is light years ahead of Bently in producing great profiles and cross section sheets.

I've been studying PowerCivil relentlessly for over 4 months and can't plot out a decent looking set of profiles and cross sections! Yes, my productivity took a dive. I am now thinking that I made a big mistake going to PowerCivil. PowerCivil is a monster to get set-up. There are so many perference files, project files, etc. that it is very confusing for people migrating from AutoCAD LDD. Like I said, I've been at it for nearly 4 months and still don't have a complete handle on it. How crazy is that?

The strenth of PowerCivil is in it's digital terrain modeler. It has a great set of tools for doing site modeling and analysis. It does a great job with site grading, but it's all for nothing if you can't produce a good looking set of plans that contactors can read and understand.

My advise, if your an LLD user and comfortable with AutoCAD then you might want to stay on course with the learning curve of Civil3D. Microstation users may find the processes of Geo-Pack and Powerdraft (PowerCivil) easier than I did.

I honestly feel the the software market for Civil Engineers is in a big mess right now. There is such a learning curve no matter where you turn. It is very frustrating, and my bottom line has suffered.

Good luck

 

[momozzz]

In Roads is the best program out there, but TerraModel is a very close second. TerraModel is cheaper than most programs, and far more reliable. The downfall with TerraModel is that there is virtually no support. My company is gonna be transitioning to In Roads soon, and from what I have seen, In Roads squashes any competitors.