What would you do? 4

[preludemd]

Well, since my last post I have received a call from my previous employeer. The previous employeer was my first engineering job as an associate tool design engineer. I worked there for a year then in 2001 I was laid off because of slow business. From my last posts you can tell that I'm rather disenchanted with my current position. It is not giving me the experience that I'm looking for nor is it paying a fair salary. I was laid off for 10 months before I started here so back then I was just happy to have a job that had "engineer" in the title. Well this friday I'm supposed to be meeting with my previous employeer about a new position that opened up. Through a conversation with my old boss, I will be getting more involved with manufacturing, process improvement (six sigma was mentioned)and some FEA analysis. This will help get me heading in a better career direction. I have never left a professional job under my own decision and I'm not sure of the best way to go about it. Is it better to leave a letter of "2 weeks notice" (if there is such a thing) or should I go in and personally speak with my director about the situation. I'm leary of speaking with him because in that case, there will be no hard documentation of my resignation. I've heard from many people here that my company has a habbit of "letting people go" the day that they put their 2 weeks in. So who knows what they are documenting in the employement records. Of course I do not have the job yet, but I do know that I am their leading candidate and I would like some advise on how to handle the situation if it comes.

Thank you in advance,

Sean L.

 

[ctopher]

I would be courteous and respectful and give a 2 weeks notice. But, you are right, lately I have seen and heard of companies letting an employee go early before the 2 weeks. Their reason is because of possible sabotage and the employee doesn't work 100% those 2 weeks. If you are well liked, sometimes you can get a small bonus check to leave early (if you're lucky). Good luck to you, it sounds like a good opportunity. I would do it.

 

[TheTick]

Recommended reading: <

http://lrs.ed.uiuc.edu/students/fwalters/para.html>

 

[preludemd]

The Tick......Ouch. Perhaps I should have drawn up a rough draft?

 

[Isntbard]

Before you do anything stop and think. Is the job at your old firm the right job for you or are you just taking it because you don't like you current job? Remember there are other jobs.

If you decide to take the job, write a letter of resignation. Don't make it negative. If you have nothing good to say, just say the experience was valuable. Give two weeks notice. If your current employer lays you off you can take comfort in the fact that you did the right thing.

 

[TheTick]

No offense, but your initial post is a difficult read.

 

[jmw]

Two important things:
a) the leaving letter, and I suggest you visit the letter of resignation thread for some advise
b) the interview with your old boss about a new job.

Both are important.
One day you may want to return to your current company, or, and this happens increasingly often in engineering, a merger or acquisition could put you back with a previous employer.

Now, to consider your new job. Instbard makes a very good point and if you think this is a good career move then go for it.

But: your old boss approached you.
This means that you are in a sellers market for a change. Make sure that this position is understood and get ready to horse trade.

When he makes an offer, he will offer the minimum he thinks he can get away with. You are there to negotiate from a position of comparative strength. Sit down and list all the benefits he gets by approaching you and be prepared to negotiate some fvalue on them.

You need to present the situation that:
i) you are now in a good well paying and secure job
ii) you are happy there.
Now you need to have a wish list that isn't unreasonable but is demanding and know exactly what your minimum terms are to go back. Anything you get above this is a bonus. Anything your old boss would have agreed to that you don't get is his bonus.

You also need to know that this is a step up for you or, at the least, puts you on a better career path than where you are. It is sometimes necessary to take a step sideways and back to open up a brighter future.

You were let go by this company before when toimes were slow. You must raise this as an issue. It is a valuable bargaining point. In this day and age job security is important. He will not guarantee you it won't happen again but you may be able to negotiate severance terms a good deal more favourable than before.

On salary, to my mind what you earn is between you and your current employer. You say you are not earning a fair wage. Think about what would be a fair wage and consider that if you were getting it you wouldn't want to move for less than a certain % increase. At least, try and discover what this new job should pay in the open market. Note that by approaching you direct he is saving an agents fee if he gets you. He may have some flexibility because of this. He will also save on training as he expects you to be a fast start because you already know the company.

When you resign, you may or may not have to work your notice period. Arrange with your new boss that you will start either when you have worked your notice or when they let you go, whichever is the soonest.

Ifthis is the job you want, the object of the negotiation is to win the job with a good deal. Don't spoil it by playing hard nose and don't sell yourself into slavery by not finding out his top limits. If you don't ask, you don't get.

JMW

http://www.viscoanalyser.com

Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[preludemd]

Thank you everyone for your quick replies, it is greatly appreciated. I'm meeting with them this friday for lunch so I will see what happens then. Honestly, this was a nice company to work for and if they are going to be using me for more than just tooling design this time around, I can't see a reason not to do it. I've been looking for jobs where I can do design and/or get involved with process improvement but since I don't have that much experience in it, no companies are willing to give me a chance. Hopefully this is the opportunity that I've been waiting for.

So does it look good on your resume when a previous employeer takes you back? And when you update this on your resume, do you list both time periods separately or do you combine them and move it to your most recent experience?

 

[preludemd]

Oh, and please feel free to keep posting your advise on this subject. I'm only 4 years into my career and need all of the advise that I can get.

 

[ctopher]

Good luck! Please keep us posted on the outcome.

 

[zdas04]

preludemd,
I'm probably the worst person in eng-tips to address this since the only time in my life I've left an open-ended job assignment was when I retired last year (my two previous employers were fixed-term jobs that just ended at the end of the term), but something you said above really bothered me.

The question "So does it look good on your resume when a previous employer takes you back?" has a very strong flavor that you have no plans to stay at the new company for more than a year or two. While this may be the reality today, it still sucks. Why can't you enter into a position with the idea that "I'm going to be personally responsible for making this relationship work and I'll be here for the long haul"? I have no problem with you taking an active role in your career management (if you don't who will?), but starting a job with "what can I get from these slugs before I move on?" seems like a recipe for failure and long term dissatisfaction.

Maybe my Fuddy is just getting Duddy in my dotage.


David

 

[MarauderX]

More advise...

Call up your old employer to set up an official interview in which you both can define what it is you will be doing (even if it's the same) with some contingencies if needed.

After that, even if you aren't comfortable with your current employer, talk with him about the situation and what you are thinking. The employer may not like it very much, in which case you will learn more about the quality of manager you are working for now, but at least you are being courteous by not trying to burn bridges. He might be open minded and want to know what he could do to keep you, and perhaps the two of you can negotiate the salaries, position, work, whatever. And when you talk to him, have your resignation letter ready just in case you both agree that your moving on would be best. Should that be the case you can call up your former employer and accept the position, then follow up by giving your current employer a resignation letter, and not have to go home worrying about the next day.

 

[preludemd]

zdas04 (David) First off, congradulations on your retirement and thank you for replying to my post. That's not quite how I expected that to be interpreted. As far as the upcoming opportunity is concerned, No, I do not plan on retiring from there (if hired of course). But I do plan to stay there for a better part of 5 years if not more and give them 100%. But the experience and "how would it look on my resume and contribute to my long term goals" is important to me. Like you said, if I don't manage my career, no one else will. I like the area that I live in now, but I don't want to stay here. I have a 3 year old and I have to look out for his educational experience also. Quite fankly I'm not impressed with the school systems in the area. The Elementary schools are good here but I start hearing major complaints about Jr. High and up. When he gets to that point, we will probably move back to our home town or further south depending on what I find. South would be preferred since I hate cold weather, but if I have to live at the south pole in order for my son to get a good education, then so be it.

 

[funnelguy]

prelude,
The simple answer to your rehiring question is, "Yes!" Your previous employer who laid you off for lack of work approaches you? I'd say that's a very positive endorsement in what is overall an employer's market. My 2c.

Regarding education for your children... Consider parochial or private. I have been dismayed by the stories related to me by teachers here in the midwest. The more urban the area, the worse the problems seem to be, IMO.

 

[GregLocock]

FWIW I got rehired by an ex employer.

Effectively I got a 60% (ish) pay rise in the eighteen months between walking out the gates and walking back in.

Managers love known quantities, second time around. Franky wrote a song about this.

The way you have to play it is that your negotiating position is strongest before you sign the contract. Get, in writing, some satisfactory description of your expected areas of improvement (ie training), and so on. With your previous experience in that company, and the self confidence from knowing that they want you back, you can afford to be quite aggressive, and you should be able to make it win-win for both parties.

Word of warning: six sigma is meaningless unless the company is commited to it from the top-down. Otherwise it is just the usual Deming/Taguchi/various stuff reheated and with a new label stuck on it.



Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[buzzp]

Account for both periods of employment with them on your resume separately.
Give them a notice, if you quit, for sure. You should be able to live without two weeks pay if you have too. Its better not to burn any bridges when you leave. However, if you do burn a bridge (and I have) you still have rights. Your ex employer can not say anything that is not factual and supported by a paper trail, if they are smart. When I leave an employer (I have not yet since burning a bridge) I will immediately hire a third party to call the ex employer and give me a report of the reference check. It only costs $40-$100 and will give you an idea of what the ex employer will say. I did this after getting truned down for a job I was sure I was going to get. My old boss got reemed pretty bad, by me, when I left. I was a little harsh but it had to be said. I was naive enough to think that I would be helping those that I left behind. I just made a little bit more heart ache for myself. Needless to say, the ex boss was returning the favor when potential employers would call him for references. However, after I contacted them they seemed to wake up (serious lawsuit on there hands, potentially). They quickly shut-up and simply give out my name, title, and dates of employment. I still occasionally hire a company to check references whenever I drop a resume somewhere to make sure they are still being "nice". However, it is bridge I wish I didn't burn simply because of the reference.

 

[funnelguy]

An employer can still get the message across without risk of lawsuit. The discussion goes something like this...

Prospective Employer (PE) - "Yes, we have that in our materials here. What we hoped for was a more personal reference on the gentleman. Any problems with co-workers, general attitude, stuff like that.

Old Employer (OE) - Well, we try not to deal in areas like that because of the threat of lawsuits. I hope you understand.

PE - You are the most recent employer and he was there for 5 years. Can't you help me out here? Anything?

OE - Well, I don't think we'd hire him back.

PE - Really? Could you give me some details?

OE - No, that lawsuit thing again. But like I said, I'm quite sure we would not bring him back. That's all I'm willing to say.

And there you have it. I have asked the "Would you hire him again?" question when checking references. It gives gunshy past employers a chance to express their displeasure while limiting the exposure for a lawsuit. Sometimes the things that aren't stated carry more weight.

 

[buzzp]

Very true funnelguy but my point is you are not without retribution in some cases. It depends on your lawyer.

Sometimes it would not be worth pursuing but on other occasions, such as a written report from a third party is all that is needed, no partiallity and a sometimes a voice recording (depends on the state-some allow recording as long as ONE party knows).

 

[onlyadrafter]

Hello,

Not wishing to put negative thoughts into your head but

quote:
Through a conversation with my old boss, I will be getting more involved with manufacturing, process improvement (six sigma was mentioned)and some FEA analysis.
end quote.

Remember that a lot of peoplpe get told things that will happen in their new position, but which, beacuse of financial or time constraints do not happen.

It may be that he wants you because a) he/she will save money and time on recruitment costs, b) he/she know that you can do the job thus saving money on training.

Remember the grass is not always greener on the other side.

Whatever you do decide to do, you have my best wishes.




----------------------------------
Hope this helps.
----------------------------------

maybe only a drafter
but the best user at this company!

 

[funnelguy]

buzzp,
I absolutely agree. Plus, I live in one of those states you refer to. Still, the technique is used. I would have no problem using it even if I were being recorded. You do have to be careful though.

I'm pretty sure at least 2 of my previous employers might try to damage my reputation in this manner. You are known by your enemies as well....

Hopefully, the interviewer is mature enough to realize that there are GOOD reasons for conflict.