When a you as a young engineer disagrees with your boss 10

[aust1]

Hi,

I'm a young graduate, a couple of years experience.

I recently disagreed with my boss over a critical weld in a design.

I noted it in my diary, did what he said and issued the report.

I still think I am right. What's the best to do in these situations?

Will my diary entry hold up in court if something goes wrong?

 

[asixth]

Do what I do and rip in. Not a good career move cause you'll probably be looking for new work.

 

[MadMango]

I'd repost your question in forum732, then red flag this one for deletion. You will get better responses in the proper forums.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of these Forums?

 

[Ron]

Agree with MadMango, but also offer this.

If you think you're right, do your homework and prove it. Once done, go to your boss and tell him that you yielded to his experience, but from what you had found, your assessment seemed to be the correct one. Ask him to explain, for your understanding, why he chose his answer and why your answer might not be correct. Let him know that you are still learning and need to know, in the course of your professional development, why certain decisions are made the way they are.

You might find that he's right. If so, thank him for his time. If you both agree that you were right, then you ask him what course of action should be taken to correct the report.

No need to get adversarial. You just want to get across that you are asking for your professional development, not for his embarrassment.

 

[DST148]

@Ron: Very well said.

 

[graybeach]

Back when I was an young engineer, I was having a similar dispute with my boss. I said, "when I rerun the numbers, you will see that I am right." His response was, "let's not worry about who is right. Let's instead worry about what is right."

I never forgot this and try to keep it in mind when ever I am having discussions about engineering issues.

 

[msquared48]

As a young engineer, only ask questions of your boss. Don't make statements. That's left for those with the experiennce.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

 

[Teguci]

One other thing to add to the above. If your boss isn't the signing engineer, make sure you voice your concerns to the person who is actually taking responsibility for the project.

 

[fancypants]

Me personally am similar to "asixth" in that I use to and still do "Get in there and Duke-Out" right or wrong. If someone is wrong and cannot admit so well..... If I end up being wrong then I admit it and eat a lot of crow but I learn more than bowing before the king. Being a "Yes Sir, No Sir, Three Bags full" kind of guy, you will not learn much but you will get lots of brown stuff on your nose.

Here is a snip-it from a paper I have read by Leonard Eaton on a history of Hardy Cross. You can find the paper at

http://www.emis.de/journals/NNJ/Eaton.html

Quoted from the paper and speaking of Hardy Cross

"Once a student named Alford told Cross that he thought one of the problem solutions in their text was wrong. Cross paced back and forth, staring hard at the student, and pointing at him fiercely. "Can you, a graduate student, actually have the temerity to accuse the internationally known engineer who wrote this book of MAKING A MISTAKE? Can you really believe that the publishers would allow such an alleged error to be printed? Can you show us the error?"
Alford seemed unable to answer.
Still pacing, Cross said, "Can anyone help Mr. Alford? Do any of you see a mistake in problem four?"
The class was silent.
"Well, Mr. Alford," Cross said sternly, "would you care to retract your accusation?"
"It's just that I can't..."
"Speak up!" Cross thundered.
"I still believe it's wrong!" Alford shouted, his face red with embarrassment.
"Then kindly come to the board and prove it to us," Cross taunted. "We shall be pleased to see the proof of your unfounded allegation."
Alford labored at the board without success for the rest of the period.

Cross began his next lecture by saying, "In our last meeting Mr. Alford raised a serious and unfounded charge against the author of our text." Staring at Alford, he said, "Have you reconsidered your accusation?"
"No, sir," Alford replied. "I still believe he is wrong."
"To the board, then. We still await your proof."
Alford's labors were again unsuccessful.
The third time the class met, Cross said, "Mr. Alford, are you ready to withdraw your ill- considered accusation about problem four?"
Moments 1ater Alford was at the board. Within a few minutes he managed to show the solution to the problem in the book was incorrect, and he returned to his seat. Cross's pleasure was evident from his expression. "You must always have the courage of your convictions," he aaid. "Mr. Alford does; apparently the rest of you do not, or you are not yet sufficiently well educated to realize that authority — the authority of a reputation or the authority of a printed page — means very little. All of you should hope to someday develop as much insight and persistence as Mr. Alford."" End of quote

Take what I say with a grain salt. I am at about the 8 year mark. This is just me and my personality. Like "asixth" says you might be looking for new work.

 

[TenPenny]

Some people enjoy the adversarial style, where the objective is to prove yourself right, and the other person wrong.

Others prefer to find the correct solution, and not worry about who is proposing it.

 

[rb1957]

i think you have to be very diplomatic in trying the tell the boss he's wrong.

it'd be much better (IMHO) sitting down with a mentor (assuming the boss is too busy to deal with an unimportant minion) and try to figure out the assumptions that'd make the boss's answer right, your assumptions with make the answer wrong and arm westle between the two.

 

[rowingengineer]

Interesting, don't know what your designing or how important it is or this weld. But in my normal structure I would make about 100 assumptions before I got to weld design. there is the analysis, then the loadings, and some geo-tech, ect. I could undersize the weld significantly in some situations and the building would stand teh test of time, however in other situations I undersize the weld and it would fail in construction.

Lets not assume your boss is an idiot or a dirt bag, sometimes they have the experience to know that all the assumptions don't make a double weld pass better than a single weld pass or whatever.

It I was you I would take notice of what graybeach wrote: "let's not worry about who is right. Let's instead worry about what is right."

http://www.nceng.com.au/

"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."

 

[cliff234]

I also agree with what Ron said.

We all continue to learn throughout our careers. Actually, the older I get the more I realize how little I know! I long for the days when I was young and knew everything! (kidding of course!)

You are wise to not blindly follow what you are told, but always approach problems with an open mind.

The key to a professionally rewarding career is our ability to improve our communication skills (a skill that does not come naturally to many engineers) - and that includes our listening skills.

 

[hokie66]

Thanks to fancypants for the story about Hardy Cross.

 

[Ron]

Interesting that Hardy Cross was a structural engineer, but is perhaps better known for his development of hydraulic flow balancing in pipes.

 

[paddingtongreen]

Sorry but it looks to me as though both graybeach and TenPenny are impugning the integrity of the OP. The OP believes he has the correct solution, he does not appear to be thinking, "My way right or wrong".

If I ever overruled one of my subordinates, I explained why even if it was purely "feel" on my part.

Michael.
Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance.

 

[RFreund]

Agree with Msquared, I always phrase as a question rather than a statement. This usually works best. As a rule people will get defensive if you are making a statement against them and thus they only want to prove you wrong and not find the 'right' answer. Besides, most of the time the boss has with held another factor that in-fact makes him right and you/I had not thought of it.

EIT

http://www.HowToEngineer.com

 

[hokie66]

Ron,
I suppose it depends on who you ask. For instance, if you ask me to name structural engineers who have made outstanding contributions to the profession, Hardy Cross would be one of the first to come to mind. I don't know much about pipe flow.

 

[Ron]

hokie66...I agree; but his exposure to engineering students other than structural was through the pipe flow route.

In any case, he was a phenomenal engineer. His methods, structural and hydraulic, have long survived him.

 

[paddingtongreen]

I have heroes on two fronts, the theoretical, Hardy Cross for sure and Euler close up, and on the practical side, probably Thomas Telford at the top there with Brunel close behind. Ketchum fits somewhere in both categories.

Michael.
Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance.