When does a product become Engineering?

[stevenal]

Scenario 1: Engineer A, registered in jurisdiction A, is working on a project located in jurisdiction A. For the project, the engineer prepares specifications for a widget referencing national and international widget standards. Manufacturer B, located in jurisdiction B provides the needed widget. Manufacturer B has engineers on staff registered in jurisdiction B, and none registered in jurisdiction A. No problem here, right? Done all the time.

Scenario 2: Same as above, but Engineer A is in need of a whatsit for the project. No national standards or international standards can be found for whatsits, and Engineer A has much less familiarity with the product. He leans heavily on the knowledge and expertise of manufacturer B who is the leading authority on whatsits. Manufacturer B asks for detailed site information before recommending a whatsit custom built for the project, which Engineer A then acquires from the manufacturer. Manufacturer B sends a representative to be on hand during installation. Is manufacturer B guilty of unlicensed practice in jurisdiction A?

 

[IRstuff]

Depends on what the law in jurisdiction A says; there are a lot of uncertainties
> is there an industrial exemption
> did the engineer actually do engineering in A?
> did the engineer offer to do engineering in A?

Typically, "widgets" engineering are covered by industrial exemptions, but there are states that don't have that

https://fxbinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/state-by-state-summary-licensure-law-exemptions.pdf

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[dauwerda]

Great question, and one I have pondered myself. From the little bit of looking into this I have done. Some states make it clear that it is not an issue (B is selling a manufactured product that is engineered - not the same thing as selling engineering services). Other states are not so clear on the issue and seem to indicate it would be a problem.

 

[IRstuff]

There's bound to be a gray area, specifically, what part of product support is covered by an industrial exemption; obviously, anything within the product itself would be likely be covered by the exemption, but installation design, foundation design, etc., might possibly be borderline.

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[stevenal]

Assume both jurisdictions have industrial exemptions. Yes, Engineer A is performing engineering services in his role here.

 

[IRstuff]

OK, in the second case, he's ostensibly a contractor hired by the company, since the post-delivery service is provided by (implicitly contracted for), or contracted for separately, as part of the procurement.

In that case, at least in California, he's still covered by the industrial exemption.

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[stevenal]

Jurisdiction A is not CA, and does not have industrial exemptions that extend to contractors.

 

[IRstuff]

Well, what does the exemption say?

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[LionelHutz]

Manufacturer B built a whatsit in jurisdiction B and shipped it. Nothing wrong with that.

Is the manufacturer representative an engineer or just a representative? Doing installation work? There to give advice? Watching the install to ensure the whatsit is not damaged and installed so it will work?

 

[stevenal]

1 Engineer licensed in B only.
2 No
3 Yes
4 Yes

 

[LionelHutz]

Your question doesn't have an answer without more details.

I should have asked who is paying the engineers salary and what were the terms of the contract that resulted in the engineer being on site. It might be argued that the engineer is there as part of his employment with B to ensure the thing B manufactured and warrantied will actually work as designed by B to meet the warranty given by B.

 

[stevenal]

No contract exists yet, just an incomplete proposal. Is there a way to write the contract that would help avoid problems with board? Manufacturer's representative engineer is employee of manufacturer.

 

[dauwerda]

I would call/email the specific board and see what their thoughts on the matter are. In similar situations I have had different boards have different opinions/interpretations. I feel many people/boards appreciate the opportunity to weigh in on the matter before any issues might happen and often these grey areas tend to work out more in your favor if upfront about it in the beginning.

 

[CWB1]

So long as A's customer is another company then both are fine. If A is selling to the public something outside of their expertise then they are ethically lacking bc they are practicing outside of their expertise. If B knows A is trying to sell to the public outside of their expertise then B should be reporting A. If B proceeds with selling to A knowing that A is selling to the public then both need to be reported.

 

[stevenal]

Update:

In an attempt to keep within the law, Engineer A has engaged the services of Engineer C registered in jurisdiction A to review the documents. Engineer C is better suited for this purpose than A. In the meantime, Manufacturer B has delivered an "engineering report" document to A complete with an engineer's B jurisdiction seal. The report includes drawings of the whatsit, installation details, a design for a plank needed to interface with the whatsit, and lots of site specific detail (recall the site is in jurisdiction A). The report is forwarded to engineer C. If approved by C, the plank design will go to local fabricators and the whatsit will be provided by manufacturer B. I believe the engineer who signed and sealed the engineering report may need to answer to the board in jurisdiction A. Do you agree?

 

[CWB1]

Stateside - No. A is the EoR for the project, subcontractor C is the EoR for the whatsit system. A should've hired C based on experience with that whatsit/similar, as it sounds like they did - good job A. The manufacturer's report may have been sealed by Mickey Mouse B licensed elsewhere as a matter of standard process or for insurance, advertising, or other reasons/purposes but was under no requirement to be bc B's seal isnt applicable to jurisdiction A. As EoR for that system, C is responsible to jurisdiction A for the entirety of the whatsit system including reviewing the manufacturer's specs and testing to ensure it works in jurisdiction A. If C passes the buck to an unlicensed (in that jurisdiction) engineer and someone dies, hope C enjoys court and/or prison.

 

[racookpe1978]

Bookmarked.