Eng-Tips is the largest engineering community on the Internet
Intelligent Work Forums for Engineering Professionals
-
Congratulations waross on being selected by the Tek-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!
When you have an idea 4
- Thread starter dicer
- Start date
SomptingGuy
Automotive
Easy. Invent a time machine.
I've invented many things that already exist. I've also invented things that I've then read about the very next month in a technical journal.
- Steve
I've invented many things that already exist. I've also invented things that I've then read about the very next month in a technical journal.
- Steve
msquared48
Structural
If only I could say "Make it so". and it would be there...
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
-
1
- #5
It isn't enough simply to have an idea, you have to do something with it.
I invented a new type of vortex flowmeter.
I decided that patenting was an expensive way to give the idea away because the cost of defending the patents would be prohibitive. A patent is only as good as your ability to spend money defending it.
Instead I used confidentiality agreements to discuss with prospective manufacturers e.g. the company I worked for at the time (protected by the 1977 patents act).
It seemed to me to fit with their core skills, and other companies were busy investing in other conventional vortex meters, but after the presentation, the engineering team tasked to review it decided it was a non starter.
A year or so after I left the company (some few years down the line) the chief engineer had the grace to send me a copy of a new patent by a US university that duplicated my ideas and to apologise. So that idea is out there now with some University teams names all over it. Actually, I made a better job of it in terms of concept and designs for implementation, but so what?
There often comes time when an invention is inevitable.
If there is a need, then as enabling technology emerges, chances are a bunch of people will have the same idea at more or less the same time.
The winner is then the one who gets to market first.
About all you can do is congratulate yourself on being smart enough to spot it but that's about it. For the one guy that patents it there may be just one other guy, you, who also thought of it, or there may be an army of people all saying "Hey, I thought of that. If only....."
If you had the idea and went no-where with it, too bad.
You also get small credit for being smart enough to think of it but not clever enough to do anything with it.
I am still sitting on a new domestic water meter design (if any one is interested).
Much better than the existing mechanical meters but the big names in the industry were reluctant to invest in a new technology when they had a comfortable share of the market.... and didn't invent it themselves.... I went round a couple of major water meter companies with that and the same deal.
It isn't just the "not invented here" syndrome but also economics. Why invest good money to make your original product obsolete if it doesn't actually generate a bigger market share.... it was as much about not upsetting the status quo as anything.
The trouble is there are not enough smaller hungrier companies still big enough to afford the investment and get away with it without being bought up and closed down.
Those of you who like coriolis meters may remember the Exac which was arguably lots better than the MicroMotion at the time. After a patent fight that ran to many millions of dollars, the Exac died when Rosemount bought out Fisher and shut down manufacture.
It didn't matter that the Exac was considered by many to be the better meter.
There are many meter technologies that never made it into the market for various reasons. Not because they didn't work but for other commercial reasons.
I;d like to think I could have invented the mass meter while washing the car, for example, a perfectly reasonable scenario. But if I did, I might still not have beaten MicroMotion to the market. There is more to it than the right idea.
All of which gets you nowhere if you had the idea and didn't get anywhere with it. But what can we say? Except too bad.
JMW
I invented a new type of vortex flowmeter.
I decided that patenting was an expensive way to give the idea away because the cost of defending the patents would be prohibitive. A patent is only as good as your ability to spend money defending it.
Instead I used confidentiality agreements to discuss with prospective manufacturers e.g. the company I worked for at the time (protected by the 1977 patents act).
It seemed to me to fit with their core skills, and other companies were busy investing in other conventional vortex meters, but after the presentation, the engineering team tasked to review it decided it was a non starter.
A year or so after I left the company (some few years down the line) the chief engineer had the grace to send me a copy of a new patent by a US university that duplicated my ideas and to apologise. So that idea is out there now with some University teams names all over it. Actually, I made a better job of it in terms of concept and designs for implementation, but so what?
There often comes time when an invention is inevitable.
If there is a need, then as enabling technology emerges, chances are a bunch of people will have the same idea at more or less the same time.
The winner is then the one who gets to market first.
About all you can do is congratulate yourself on being smart enough to spot it but that's about it. For the one guy that patents it there may be just one other guy, you, who also thought of it, or there may be an army of people all saying "Hey, I thought of that. If only....."
If you had the idea and went no-where with it, too bad.
You also get small credit for being smart enough to think of it but not clever enough to do anything with it.
I am still sitting on a new domestic water meter design (if any one is interested).
Much better than the existing mechanical meters but the big names in the industry were reluctant to invest in a new technology when they had a comfortable share of the market.... and didn't invent it themselves.... I went round a couple of major water meter companies with that and the same deal.
It isn't just the "not invented here" syndrome but also economics. Why invest good money to make your original product obsolete if it doesn't actually generate a bigger market share.... it was as much about not upsetting the status quo as anything.
The trouble is there are not enough smaller hungrier companies still big enough to afford the investment and get away with it without being bought up and closed down.
Those of you who like coriolis meters may remember the Exac which was arguably lots better than the MicroMotion at the time. After a patent fight that ran to many millions of dollars, the Exac died when Rosemount bought out Fisher and shut down manufacture.
It didn't matter that the Exac was considered by many to be the better meter.
There are many meter technologies that never made it into the market for various reasons. Not because they didn't work but for other commercial reasons.
I;d like to think I could have invented the mass meter while washing the car, for example, a perfectly reasonable scenario. But if I did, I might still not have beaten MicroMotion to the market. There is more to it than the right idea.
All of which gets you nowhere if you had the idea and didn't get anywhere with it. But what can we say? Except too bad.
JMW
dicer,
I am trying to learn carpentry here at home.
I designed a wall cabinet for my bathroom. Rather than screw it straight to the wall, I decided to screw a wedge to the wall, and build a mating wedge into the cabinet. As I completed the project, I had second thoughts about all this, and I searched the internet to see how other people mount cabinets.
I turns out I have re-invented the French cleat. French cleats are a standard way for mounting stuff to walls. It is a rather obvious solution if you think about it. It is mindbogglingly unlikely that I am the second person to figure this out.
JHG
I am trying to learn carpentry here at home.
I designed a wall cabinet for my bathroom. Rather than screw it straight to the wall, I decided to screw a wedge to the wall, and build a mating wedge into the cabinet. As I completed the project, I had second thoughts about all this, and I searched the internet to see how other people mount cabinets.
I turns out I have re-invented the French cleat. French cleats are a standard way for mounting stuff to walls. It is a rather obvious solution if you think about it. It is mindbogglingly unlikely that I am the second person to figure this out.
Sure, just about every whiteboard in our building mounted on hard walls uses something similar. They're basically a strip of metal bent out and up from wall at about a 10° angle. The identical mate, but upside down is mounted on the white board.
So not only has someone else thought about it, they've come up with a variety of variations.
Inventions are sometimes easy, but capitalizing on them is a wholly different matter. Timing is everything. To wit, Julius Edgar Lilienfeld patented the field effect transistor in 1925, but the semiconductor technology was pretty rudimentary, and so patent lapsed, either through complete neglect by the inventor, or because he realized that the devices were too far ahead of their time.
Similarly, we had a secretary who came up with idea for a car navigation system with a map display in 1983, at which time, the 386 had barely come out, and the largest removable media was the CD, and it was not even remotely capable of storing all the map information. Had she patented her idea, she still would probably have gotten zero in the way of royalties, since actual devices that came out would have been substantial improvements to her "prior art" anyway.
The converse on timing is, of course, the Darth Vader of inventions, Jerome Lemuelson. Starting with a mysteriously continued patent from the late 50's, he parlayed that sequence well into the 1980s to usurp the actual inventors of the VCR, bar code reader, and a host of other inventions. His foundation, by suing anyone with deep pockets, aggregated millions of dollars in royalties that should have gone to the actual inventors, who were left with nothing but a footnote in history.
There is also Robert Kearns, the inventor of the ubiquitous delay-timed windshield wiper, who got rooked, even with NDAs and a patent.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
So not only has someone else thought about it, they've come up with a variety of variations.
Inventions are sometimes easy, but capitalizing on them is a wholly different matter. Timing is everything. To wit, Julius Edgar Lilienfeld patented the field effect transistor in 1925, but the semiconductor technology was pretty rudimentary, and so patent lapsed, either through complete neglect by the inventor, or because he realized that the devices were too far ahead of their time.
Similarly, we had a secretary who came up with idea for a car navigation system with a map display in 1983, at which time, the 386 had barely come out, and the largest removable media was the CD, and it was not even remotely capable of storing all the map information. Had she patented her idea, she still would probably have gotten zero in the way of royalties, since actual devices that came out would have been substantial improvements to her "prior art" anyway.
The converse on timing is, of course, the Darth Vader of inventions, Jerome Lemuelson. Starting with a mysteriously continued patent from the late 50's, he parlayed that sequence well into the 1980s to usurp the actual inventors of the VCR, bar code reader, and a host of other inventions. His foundation, by suing anyone with deep pockets, aggregated millions of dollars in royalties that should have gone to the actual inventors, who were left with nothing but a footnote in history.
There is also Robert Kearns, the inventor of the ubiquitous delay-timed windshield wiper, who got rooked, even with NDAs and a patent.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
PeterCharles
Mechanical
If you have an idea but can't afford to patent it, publish it so putting it in the public domain. At least that stops anyone else patenting it, or if they do they end up with a worthless patent.
-
1
- #10
![[yinyang]](/data/assets/smilies/yinyang.gif "[yinyang] [yinyang]")
![[peace]](/data/assets/smilies/peace.gif "[peace] [peace]")
PeterCharles
Mechanical
But did anyone take any notice of them. We tend to ignore them and if we get a Patent Agents letter just send back proof of prior art.
It depends on how vigorously the victim, er, defendant, chooses to fight the claim for royalties, as well as how well-equipped the defendant's literature resources are. This was back in the hoary days before Google Scholar, etc., and it wasn't that easy to know what literature was available. Being the packrat that I was, er, am, I had textbooks I could refer to, whereas others under similar circumstances might not have had.
At the time, we were been sued to $50M, so we had plenty of incentive to work at beating down the final sum, which wound up at $7M. Unfortunately, I didn't get a slice of a well-deserved 10% finder's fee...![[cry]](/data/assets/smilies/cry.gif "[cry] [cry]")
TTFN
FAQ731-376
At the time, we were been sued to $50M, so we had plenty of incentive to work at beating down the final sum, which wound up at $7M. Unfortunately, I didn't get a slice of a well-deserved 10% finder's fee...
TTFN
FAQ731-376
-
2
- #13
mauricestoker
Mechanical
Wish I would have come up with the idea of the pet rock.
mauricestoker,
I took art in high school. My teacher had a pet rock, back before this became popular. He even filmed a little documentary on it.
One could argue that the real innovation was packaging, marketing and selling the pet rocks. My art teacher did not think of this.
Do you think I could get away with marketing an Ontario cleat?
JHG
I took art in high school. My teacher had a pet rock, back before this became popular. He even filmed a little documentary on it.
One could argue that the real innovation was packaging, marketing and selling the pet rocks. My art teacher did not think of this.
Do you think I could get away with marketing an Ontario cleat?
mauricestoker
Mechanical
My oldest son came up with the idea of a pet made out of a hose. He decided to take it to school to show the idea off, but unfortunately he came up with the name, Mr. Bobbit. The teacher sent him home with a note that the name was better than his idea for Smucker's fudge, but still not acceptable. I guess marketing is everything.
More than once I've had an idea, done little about it and then seen it in a magazine or on a TV commercial.
I remember something about mailing copies of your idea to yourself so that you could have a sealed, date stamped copy if later required. I suppose Notary stamp may be similar but don't know the details - or if it would even be worth anything.
I remember something about mailing copies of your idea to yourself so that you could have a sealed, date stamped copy if later required. I suppose Notary stamp may be similar but don't know the details - or if it would even be worth anything.
Posting guidelines faq731-376 (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
BrunoPuntzJones
Materials
KENAT
The strategy about mailing yourself something is really more for copyright that intellucaul property (and even then, the US Copyright Office does not consider it valid). For something to be prior art, it must be publicly available (such as a patent, or journal article).
Believe me, if you're lucky enough to not deal with patents, you should be happy. And most patent holders don't make a dime of it anyways (perhaps a small bonus) because their patent is assigned to their employer.
The strategy about mailing yourself something is really more for copyright that intellucaul property (and even then, the US Copyright Office does not consider it valid). For something to be prior art, it must be publicly available (such as a patent, or journal article).
Believe me, if you're lucky enough to not deal with patents, you should be happy. And most patent holders don't make a dime of it anyways (perhaps a small bonus) because their patent is assigned to their employer.
I think the mailing thing was an old UK trick and I'm not sure how valid it is now, if ever.
We do a lot of patent stuff here, I just haven't been very involved with it.
We do a lot of patent stuff here, I just haven't been very involved with it.
Posting guidelines faq731-376 (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
"it must be publicly available "
No, that invalidates the patent, since it's assumed that publication means that you've waived ownership rights to the idea. This was the approach we used to invalidate a a bunch of patents in a patent suit. We proved that many of the patents were sufficiently described in the literature or textbooks prior to the patent priority date.
In the case of the invention of the laser, it took Gordon Gould 20+ years to get the Bell Labs laser patent overturned in his favor, mainly through the fact that he had copious and continuous documentation:
TTFN
FAQ731-376
No, that invalidates the patent, since it's assumed that publication means that you've waived ownership rights to the idea. This was the approach we used to invalidate a a bunch of patents in a patent suit. We proved that many of the patents were sufficiently described in the literature or textbooks prior to the patent priority date.
In the case of the invention of the laser, it took Gordon Gould 20+ years to get the Bell Labs laser patent overturned in his favor, mainly through the fact that he had copious and continuous documentation:
TTFN
FAQ731-376
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Question