Who approves field changes, EOR or Staff Engineer? 2

[PengStruct]

I'm inspecting some safety critical facade installations which the contractor has installed using a different type of epoxy than what is on the sealed shop drawings. As the Special Inspector I told them they needed to get the changes approved by the EOR but they only got an email statement from the staff engineer approving the change. I've since told them they need to get the EOR, who sealed the drawing to approve the change. By the way engineer who sealed the drawing does not work at the design engineers office but it appears he was hired to presumably review and seal the drawing since he has licensure in this state.

Do others agree with my logic here or should I accept the design engineers approval? It just seems like the liability and responsibility has become obscured and I do not want to expose myself to what should be the engineers liability.

 

[Teguci]

Any change away from the drawing removes that liability from the signing engineer. To put the liability back on the signing engineer he must agree to those changes. That agreement should be in writing. If you want to expedite a response from the middle men, suggest in a phone call, that it might be unethical for people to perform engineering who aren't properly licensed in the state.

 

[kipfoot]

Do others agree with my logic here

Yes.

They may accuse you of being persnickety, but when they say "what's the big deal, it's just epoxy," you can reply, "great. Since it's no big deal the EOR should be able to bounce a reply right back." The EOR will appreciate the heads up that they've chosen to tweak the design.

 

[EngineeringEric]

If the staff engineer is licensed, are they licensed in that state? if they aren't than it sounds like they are doing engineering when not licensed with that state... that's no good!

 

[TXEng-USA]

I agree with your logic PengStruct. Can you tell us what the original epoxy was and the replacement?

 

[Ron]

PengStruct.....you are correct. Stick to your guns.

 

[PengStruct]

Thanks for all replies. I don't know if the design engineer is licensed in this state but it seems it's moot if they did not seal the drawings. I won't go into further detail About the epoxy but the panels are stone and on a ceiling directly over public and hung using clips epoxied to stone and that are epoxy set in the stone with sustained tension. I'm no facade engineer but I wouldn't have designed it that way.

 

[hokie66]

I wouldn't have, either. There are limited types of epoxy for that application, and careful supervision and attention to detail is required. Remember the collapse of the ceiling in the Boston Big Dig tunnel?

 

[darthsoilsguy2]

throwing out another 2 possibilities first.... The EOR is also the company that produced the plans. If the company has a structural engineer, the project may now be under the responsible charge of a new EOR internally but hasn't been well communicated to the project team. This is very common and transitions are rarely smooth. the professional liability insurance and contract should be with the company.

you should check the staff engineer for licensure online at the secretary of state website, but know that it is not uncommon either for unlicensed staff to handle the processing of submittals and still be under responsible charge of a licensed engineer.

okay.. so those are my warnings for throwing stones in how you handle it.

the Special Inspector is responsible for reviewing that Duties and Responsibilities of the project team are handled in a transparent way consistent with the building code. It is clear that you are unsure who the EOR is for the Construction Phase. The submittal review should be done under the charge of the EOR. All correspondence from you should include the EOR on the distribution list and that list can be expanded to include his/her project manager, but never just the PM when they tell you they will forward.

Send an email to the distribution list and say that construction phase is underway so you need to add the EOR to your distribution list. Ask them to confirm the EOR hasn't changed and is engaged in construction services, and if not then who will be the new EOR for construction phase. If you get a reply, call the EOR and sort it out. If you get no reply or an unsatisfactory replay, reply all to that email and issue a discrepancy notice.

 

[Ron]

I don't like that type of attachment either. That can become a life-safety issue.

I've done a lot of consulting for "a major theme park near Orlando", which had its own building code in addition to the mandated building code, and one of the major issues they protect is any overhead attachment. They require redundant attachment on almost everything overhead. Your application apparently has no redundancy.

 

[OldBldgGuy]

I've seen stone soffits and I've seen 100% dependence on adhesives for them even when they were apparently mechanical systems (as yours seems to be) and I really couldn't sleep at night if I were responsible for either gluing the panels themselves or gluing their hangers into stone slabs over someone's head. I would sure as hell specify the epoxy, and I wouldn't be blase about someone changing it. Details that use mechanical fastening just seem more reliable, even when you have the possibility of a flaw in the middle of a stone panel suddenly deciding to release.

 

[PengStruct]

Darthsoilsguy: This is a case where the facade engineer does not have a license in this state so it appears they hired an engineer to stamp the drawings who is licensed in this state (who I'm calling the EOR). The EOR and the design engineers office are not in the same state either. The EOR is not on any emails but I have found his phone number and will give him a call to discuss since responses from anyone else are slow.

The situation is made worse by the GC not understanding the situation and the installer not speaking english or being trained correctly. My last report summarized the situation well so hopefully this will be resolves next week.

 

[darthsoilsguy2]

i get that and it is very common in design/build. your use of the word "appears" indicates you don't have what you think is going on as a written record. i'm just putting a technique out there to flush them out of the bush and to get the PM for the installer/fabricator to bring their engineer to the table and on-the-record too. Most of the time, "stamps" do have language in their contracts to provide construction services, but it is usually just a budgetless hourly unit price with on-call authorization set up in their terms, and the call is from their client not just anybody associated with the project. i've had plenty of fights with design/build PMs about engineering so this topic is sort of a pet peeve.

 

[IRstuff]

FYI, Boston's "Big Dig" used concrete panels as facades and were anchored using epoxy. A panel fell and killed someone. It turned out that the epoxy used was not suitable for the application, and the epoxy was the intended, per design.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Dig#Fatal_ceiling_collapse

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