Why is it ever so difficult to find the standards? 6

[EngCutie]

Do some companies just not bother with buying standards not often used? ASME standards are at visible places, but EN and API standards are nowhere to be seen. Is it just the companies I have been, or it’s the same with many companies?

It’s quite annoying not be able to find what I need. It’s like this in my last company, people suggested to have them electronically stored on the intranet, make it easier for people to search and find what they want, not sure if any company does it, it seems very costly.

Anyway, I have got a new job, and my old ID got blocked... don’t know why.


Cutie

 

[moltenmetal]

You've hit on a sore point with me for sure. Lack of availability is the key reason these standards are often ignored or improperly followed, sometimes putting life and limb at risk.

Any standard which becomes a de-facto regulation under a piece of legislation, SHOULD be available free of charge- or they should be replaced with standards which ARE freely available. The TSSA Act in Ontario, for instance, gives CSA B51 and hence ASME VIII and the various B31 piping codes essentially the force of regulation.

In fact, some standards such as the Ontario Building Code ARE indeed available free of charge on Canadian legal websites- but you have to look damned hard to FIND them.

Yeah, I know that the organizations which produce and maintain these standards require a means of funding. I'm just saying that this funding should no longer be provided on a "user-pay" basis. Rather, they should be funded by government.

 

[TheTick]

Because the standards are copyright-protected material. You have to buy them. The owners protect their copyright and do not allow the standards to be tossed up on the web for all to use for free.

 

[SNORGY]

Simply put, companies (engineering companies in particular) do not view the acquisition and updating of standards as a necessary cost of doing business. they will, however, spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in intranet systems, email migrations and accounting software...

Not that I am in any way bitter...

Regards,

SNORGY.

 

[jmw]

Some companies watch the pennies so close they will only approve buying one standard at a time and probably reject a few requests on principle.
Don't I know it.
I have a couple of standards I have bought out of my onw pocket.
But the standards can be bought en mass which makes a much better deal for a company and makes it much easier for all concerned. The only thing needed is to ensure they are properly controlled within the organisation.


JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[MadMango]

I was looking for some basic standards and references in my new position. Everyone I asked said they haven't seen them. I finally talked to someone "in the know", and his response was that they were never used, so they were boxed-up and placed in corporate storage. Yikes!

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of these Forums?

 

[ctopher]

This goes back to my complaint in another thread.
When engineering managers are not engineers, they don't give a damn about standards. To them the standards are unnecessary costs, extra work, and paperwork.
They don't understand the world of design.

Chris
SolidWorks 09 SP4.1
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

 

[EngCutie]

I totally agree with you Chris, I’m trying to purchase relief valves, but we haven’t got the relevant API standards I could check. I have just spent all day looking on Google hoping I could get lucky to get a free copy somewhere... and I very much doubt we will ever buy these standards...I’m new here, I wonder how they managed without the standards in the past years ...

Cutie

 

[ColonelSanders83]

I am one of the Lucky ones I guess, If I need a standard I just fill out the requisition and my boss immediatly approves it. No questions asked. Its great but I can see it coming to an end as the company grows, only time will tell.

JMW your comment regarding the proper control of standards is on the money. I am attempting to get that fixed here. Time will tell if I am successfull. So far document control has been very resistant to change (i.e. WORK).

Always remember, free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it!

 

[kepharda]

Wow, I actually have something to add.

I completely agree with the other posters, $400 for a standard is "outrageous" but show me one accounting or IT product under $2,500.

And last I checked neither is something our clients pay us for, but I digress.

Be careful placing PDF copies of certain standards (like API) on a company server, my experience has been that once you do that, the only computer that could then open it was the server, ......this was sort of a problem.

I am guessing there is a way to make it work on a server, but I just thought I would mention it so you don't have to buy it twice.

this message has been approved for citizen to elect kepharda 2008

 

[debodine]

I am not an expert in this area but I certainly have seen (and fought with) some of the issues raised here. At most of the aerospace engineering organzations where I have worked, we are normally in the retrofit regime.

I have only ever worked for one OEM (Rockwell Collins, on a one year contract). At Rockwell Collins having access to standards ON REVISION SERVICE was not even questioned...it was considered a mandatory requirement and not negotiable.

At most of all the other organizations where I did engineering, either contract or direct, the general thought pattern was that the standards are good to have but no one wants to fight the capital budget folks for funds to keep them ON REVISION SERVICE.

I capitalized ON REVISION SERVICE because in my humble (ok not really so humble) opinion, and standards that are genuinely necessary for the task must be on revision service or there is always the risk of liability if the worst happens.

I can only imagine what a sharp lawyer would do with the information that a design was created to a standard but there was no process in place to verify it was the current standard.

I completely agree that most standards that change do not usually change the core focus, and that designs built to the old standard will not suddenly start falling out of the sky because the standard was revised. But I would really prefer an effort by management to state, "These are the standards (and list the standards in writing) without which we cannot comply with FAA requirements, and thus we will bite the bullet to have these on revision service no matter how many bean counters disagree."

I realize managers always have to consider cost, but risk should be in that calculation too. Maybe it is and I just don't recognize it.

 

[jmw]

kepharda,
I'm not sure about the copy write aspects of publishing them on the intranet.

Sure, the quick way to get them is to purchase and download over the internet as pdf files, but I'd suspect that there may be some dangers of putting them on the company server where anyone can access, print copy and distribute in emails etc.

In my last company the drawing office maintained full control which included only letting out paper copies and having a register of who had them.

Of course, some guys would sign out a standard and never return it so you had to track them down and pester them to find what they had done with it and some guys tended to think of them as their own personal property so it got a bit fraught trying to separate them from a standard they had "acquired" some years earlier but not used since.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[PeterStock]

A company that say they work to a standard had better be able to show they have or have access to that standard. If they do not, I would think (i.e. if it was me making the decision), that their statement would not be given any weight. In any case it would take some proving (and cost much more than the standard), to show they knew the standard.

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services

http://www.infotechpr.net

 

[MadMango]

I have seen PDF standards for network use, usually you have to pay for a network license that covers 3 or 5 "seats" of the standard. When they are printed, they are watermarked to prevent free-copying and distribution.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of these Forums?

 

[PeterStock]

Our client company has access to a service that provides such standards. I recently read part of the new ASME Y14.5 2009 there. Check into the cost. You would have access to most of the standards there are. (I will try to remember to post the name of the service, it is quiting time.)

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services

http://www.infotechpr.net

 

[ewh]

Everywhere I have worked in the past had some sort of service to provide current and pertinent standards, until now. I share your frustration.
CONGRATS ON THE JOB!!!

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - [small]Robert Hunter[/small]

 

[ARenko]

I'm lucky. Through a service offered by another company, my company subscribes to a collection of standards. The collection one can access is based on that person's location. I can access many standards, including those from API, ASME, AWS, and ISO. I'm not sure exactly how it works because sometimes the current version is unavailable (I can download past versions though), but most of what I need is available. If it's not I just buy it and expense it - I don't bother asking the boss unless it's more than $100.

 

[Hurricanes]

I have no idea of the cost, but we have all the Australian Standards online. The company maintains 6 licences a year, meaning 6 people can be online at the same time.

Any standard I want is right at my finger tips. The ones I use more frequently I have printed out and bound.

We have hard copies of a few API and ASME standards, it is a hassle when they update them though....

 

[ColonelSanders83]

When I worked at my first company we had full access to just about every spec and standard known to man. the service name was IHS, and it was as close to engineering heaven as I am likley to get.

Somedays I miss it dearly. Looked into a subsricption once I became a contracter but it was not economical for less then about 20 seats, so here I sit forced to buy them when I need them.



Always remember, free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it!

 

[EngCutie]

If you already have a copy of the standards, do you still need to pay the full cost for a revised one? Why do they revise the standards so often?

Thanks ewh

I doubt I will ever use my own money to buy the standards.


Cutie