Wits end on ethics 3

[dcasto]

As a PE I'm very aware of ethics and am required by my jurisdiction to take continuing education. But the message from the industry is just terrible I am to sensitive or are other caught like me. Here is the problem.

I recently submitted a bid to supply equipment and services along with several others. The RFP came from the 900 pound gorilla type that you always need sometime in the future.

One of the requirements had two quality specifications that could not be met, it was physically impossible to meet both. 2 of the groups submitting proposals ommitted this from their proposals. I presented a way to solve the issues that the 900 pound gorilla had heard of but nevcer pursued. I was told that our proposal was at the top of the heep and they wanted to start detailed negotiations as we had the lowest cost.

I enter into the details like insurance, process guarentees, taxes, all mostly legal boiler plate. During the negotiating they requested more and more details on the engineering, including major equipment suppliers and P&ID's. They also ask what it would cost if they changed one of the quality specs. Graet, the tighter spec only cost money and energy.

After 3 months , yes three months, we were past a date in which my suppliers could no longer meet the required start date. Then the Gorilla stopped communicating. Two weeks later they call and inform me that they have contracted with one of my major equirpment suppliers to do the project.

NOW, that major supplier and I have an alliance and there is no anti compete language, but the contract says explicitely that they (the supplier) were only equipment suppliers and not a servicer provider. Ethical?

AND, how did the supplier come up with a design in two weeks that took me 2 months to develop? Isn't it strange that the gorilla asked for such detail during negotiations? I had a confidentiallity agreement with the gorilla before we started.

With this off my chest, what would you do? Cancle the alliance with the supplier? Sic the lawyers on the gorilla?

Lesson learned? Don't give them data? (the jokes on them slightly, My heat and material balance isn't correct on purpose, is this unethical?)

final piece of info. It turns out the Gorilla did the same to one of the international EPC companies just a year earlier. That company makes no bones about it to the industry about how cheesey the gorrila is, wished I known this earlier.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

Thats why we don't do "bid" drawings. The 900 lb gorilla just takes them and shops them. Also the reason we put "copyrighted" and a "watermark" on the prints. Remember - copyright violation is a $100,000 fine. We mentioned it to one customer and he quickly got co-operative...

Some were simply cutting or erasing our title blocks and using our drawings for RFPs.

We will do "bid" drawings but generally ask for a few thousand dollars for our time and rebate it if we get the job.

 

[zdas04]

dcasto,
I thought you WERE the 900 lb gorilla? Have a job change?

Purposely including incorrect calculations in a document you released (unstamped) has some ethical hair on it, but it is unlikely to get you in trouble.

Until your last paragraph I thought the 900 lb gorilla was the internatonal EPC company that I used to work for. Now I'm confused.

I've avoided this particular problem by entering into a contract with my herd of gorillas to have them pay me to put together the RFP documents. There is just too much work in that processs for most E&P companies to do a very good job at it. It is rare that my pissant company can bid on these projects, but I've written RFP's and helped evaluate them.

David

 

[rbulsara]

Agree with Mikethengineer.

Looking forward, learn the lesson and do not give out detail design during proposals or studies. If you do , charge them for it.

Even worse, you will come across Owners taking concepts presented during a study or schematic phase of a project from one company and then giving the final detail design to someone else, usually less competent but cheaper. It is unethical but real.





Rafiq Bulsara

http://www.srengineersct.com

 

[Compositepro]

And forget about getting lawyers involved. The one with the most money wins 90% of the time, and everyone but the lawyers end up losers 95% of the time.

 

[diarmud]

I learned somtime ago, the hard way, not to give away too many details. The unfortunate fact for me wasy someone actually took my sketches and got a cheaper price from someone else.

When folks ask for too many details, I tell them we ahve to start talking about a contract. You'd be surprised how many disappear . . . which means they are out hooking someone else.

Lesson learned.

 

[moltenmetal]

dcasto, I feel for you. Early in my career I worked for two months with a team on a free proposal which included a 90% design. We even did pilot testing on the damned thing to make sure it would work.

We were underbid and never got a cent. The other guy's unit almost certainly NEVER performed to spec, but for the client's team to admit that would have been to admit their own failure for making a bad selection. Que presto- failure is transmuted into success, butts are covered, and everyone wins!

Everyone except us, since we only proposed stuff which we knew would work, and never got a dime!

On more than one occasion, we were asked to quote 99.9999% removal of some target contaminant, were underbid, then a couple years later we'd see an article in some trade magazine where the client claimed the project was a success because the successful bidder's unit achieved an impressive 99.9% removal. In our industry that was a unit HALF the required size, or even worse.

In my current employ, we're a 20 pound monkey rather than a 900 pound gorrilla. But we gain huge points with our suppliers by giving RFQs that encourage alternatives which still meet our design intent, and giving the surety that their innovations will remain their property and will not be used to instruct their competition.

Free detailed proposals are a definite no-no. Every time I've worked on one, I've been burned- for clients of all sizes and species.

Clients should be wise to this, as they end up paying in the end either way- in fact, they pay MORE because they pay for their stupid competitors as well.

If you charge for proposal documents, the ultimate ownership of "the work" (any docs you generate for money) has to be spelled out very clearly before the money changes hands, or else your copyright and watermark are worthless. Be careful or for a little bit of engineering money you may end up baring some of your most intimate thoughts to your competition!

 

[plasgears]

I did some landscape design services along the way on a seasonal basis. [I have training and certification in that area.] It was a challenge at times to explain in generalities what I would do without giving away the whole show. The best approach is to say I would have fuller details later when the project is in planning.

One client had the audacity to ask for a detailed walk-around, and I asked for a contract. Didn't get it, but walked around anyway. I kept it very general.

I think there is a certain justice in giving preliminary off-the-mark info when compensation is not guaranteed. And don't tell them everything.