Work by others, non-engineers

[rwpe]

I have seen the post up a number of times, but usually in an instance where another engineer is involved.

My question:
Is it acceptable to seal and sign the work of non-engineers?

To clarify my position, we are typically asked to review drawings, at a residential level, where the drawings were prepared by another. These drawings will include all of the architectural plans, the structural plans, and relevant details. Calculations are made to review the sizes and details reviewed for their content and design. All comments are returned in which the remarks are addressed and then once again returned to us for a final signature. The final product is reviewed against the original remarks and sealed if satisfactory.

In other cases, we get "walk-ins" in which an individual will bring us an 8 1/2 x 11 sheet(s), lets say a storage shed in their backyard, that needs a stamp. Same thing here where we will run the necessary calculations and provide necessary details. Any comments made sometimes are made on the drawing, initialed by the engineer, then sealing the document.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

I don't have a real problem w/ scenario one especially if you have worked with that person before. If not - establish a relationship so you know what and how they do things. You might(should) want to get in on the inital beam and structural details before they start drawing. I do this quite often. Then if they have a problem or question - I am supervising and can answer with authority. Of course a final review and check is manadatory.

Second scenario is almost diminimous. Fifteen minutes on a storage shed that is 12' x 12' should not maximize your engineering talents. And that can be reasonably done in a few monents. But again - I would suggest you have an established relationship.

HOWEVER and there is always a HOWEVER - check with your
local state board to see what they think.

 

[plasgears]

There is an analogous situation in the home built aircraft market. Many builders are not technically deep in experience, and they require the talents of aero design engineers. They may concieve of a modified configuration for some reason, and they go to qualified aero engineers to provide technical back up. True, they don't use PE stamps, but aircraft inspectors will confirm that back up calculation packages have been generated to justify the modified design.

Nothing wrong with engaging a qualified PE to review plans, make supplemental calculations, and stamp the package.

 

[civilperson]

Sure, do it all the time. I am in control and all my recommendations are incorporated in the plans. The custom footprint or layout is irrelevant to the structural details, (although the costs go up in non-standard configurations).

 

[IRstuff]

Isn't this really the same question as "Are you in responsible charge?"

Since you are signing as EOR, you are vouching for all the design details, all else matters naught. If you had a trained monkey that could do the job, that shouldn't be an issue.

This is also not that different than the liability you incur when you use design software. By using software like Autocad or Mathcad, and signing the design drawings, you are certifying the results of the software, and essentially alleviated them of the liability. As the PE, any errors in the software are your errors.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[FSS]

You sound like you are doing your due diligence as an engineer with your claculations, review, etc. The only thing missing may be making sure your name and license number (and company name/license if applicable) are clearly marked on the plans where you sign. Otherwise it is just a "floating" seal that does imply rubber stamping for hire.

 

[JStephen]

Check your local laws.

Seems like I've read in at least one state that it spefically allows for an instate engineer to review and seal the work done by an out of state engineer, and that provision wouldn't necessarily extend to non-engineers.

 

[SylvestreW]

As long as you have validated everything (calcs etc.) and you are certain it's correct, then you shouldn't have an issue assuming responsibility and thus you can stamp it.

-
Syl.

 

[cedarbluffranch]

"As long as you have validated everything (calcs etc.) and you are certain it's correct, then you shouldn't have an issue assuming responsibility and thus you can stamp it. "

Depends on the state, but most states require that the engineering work be done under the direct supervision of the PE. Simply validating and verifying the calc doesn't pass muster in a number of states.

 

[IRstuff]

direct supervision of the PE

meaning what, exactly? If you're not supposed to be sitting there, looking over the shoulder of the guy you're supervising, then all you could have done is to delegate the work and verify/review upon completion.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[rwpe]

I agree IRstuff. I think one of the key questions here is what is the definition of "direct supervision"? Is it the role of a supervisor dictating the work? Is it having a thorough knowledge of the project with direct input into what is produced?

I'd say either-or in both cases. What we need to consider, in my opinion, is the intent of the law from that aspect. I think the idea behind it is to prevent "rubber stamping" of a set of drawings. An engineer needs to "physically" (for lack of a better word) review the drawings and makes his/her remarks on the drawings and then review the same after the remarks have been addressed by the drafter or client.

To make recommendations via some other communication such as faxes or phone or email would be more along the lines of what this law is trying to prevent, in that you would be aware of only a small piece of the big picture.

 

[cedarbluffranch]

I think if you've done a preliminary markup, given it to the customer, they made the changes and gave it back to you for your approval, that's showing that you have control over the process and you're the one calling the shots as far as the engineering and calculations go.

If the customer simply gives you everything and requests a PE stamp, that's not showing you have control over the process. Bringing everything already prepared for you - including a signed check - puts you in a bind if there's something you don't like. After all, PE's aren't paid to not stamp drawings.

RWPE, I think you're fine from your original post. I replied to the other post to remind everything though that PE's aren't allowed to perform a cursory review of engineering drawings and calculations. Instead, they either need to do the calcs and drawings themselves or have someone do it that is under their direct control.

 

[BRGENG]

This really depends on what State you are in and what the client brings you. A friend of mine just went through this and was fined by the State. In his case a repeat client had brought him lifting plans for a precast project. He was to design the lifting inserts for erection, the client had all ready prepared drawings with inserts since the design was from a proto type project and had been constructed many times. My friend reviewed the drawings, ran the calculations and approved the drawings. He then provided a signed and sealed set to the client. The State Board determined that he was not under direct supervision since the client preformed the original “engineering” and drafting. He was fined for Sealing work not preformed under his direct Supervision and Aiding and Abetting a non licensed engineering firm to perform work in the State. The other firm was also fined for practicing Engineering in the State without a license.

The State Board even said that nothing was incorrect with the drawings or calculations. We did discover that many States do allow you to review and seal the work of others. Some States even allow you to take someone else’s signed drawings, alter them, highlight what you changed and double seal the sheet.

To answer your questions. If you are given a complete plans for review check with your State Board first. If someone brings in to you a “plan” and you provide all details and calculations I don’t see that being problem in any State. That is typical on almost every project.

Be sure you only sign drawings for what you are licensed in, many State’s are cracking down on Engineers and Architects signing outside of their discipline.