Here is my scenario. I'm an engineering graduate who did structural engineering for a few years, but never tested for my PE. I hit job cutbacks and eventually decided to do AutoCAD Drafting to earn a living. I service different Engs, Archs, Int Dgns, and etc, which has provoked this question. …When someone gives me paper copies of building drawings (or civil site, or similar) to recreate in AutoCAD format, can I trace them into AutoCAD without violating "copyright" of the original creator of the drawings? …Here is a perfect example I'm currently working on. ...A client of mine who does anti-corrosion systems contacted me about a water tower. The owner of the water tower wants to add my client's anti-corrosion system to their tower. My client gave me paper copies of the water tower, that were originally created by a structural engineering firm, so I could get the tower into AutoCAD format. From that point I will overlay his anti-corrosion system on the tower. The thing is, the paper copies have a “property of XYZ Company” stamp on them. I have assumed that my client has received these drawings from the owner and that he has the right to give them to me for recreating them in AutoCAD format. …This is how many of my projects are. They are improvement or revision type projects that require existing paper copies to be converted to AutoCAD so that the improvement or revision can be added.
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Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans 5
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it could be. but then there is the idea of drawings becoming public domain. there is also the idea that the client has bought them. lastly, it seems like some eng firms drop a little copyright note on whatever they create, when it may have not have been agreed to by the client in his contract with the eng. ...i just want to know my rights in my situation, in which the owner wants additions to his structure.
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There is a huge difference between copyright and confidentiality. Copyright is about publishing and sale of works. Doesn't seem to apply here.
As far as who owns the drawings, how is it that your clients get the drawings and the related projects? I doubt they are stealing the drawings. It is fairly certain that the water tower's owner has rights to the plans.
As far as who owns the drawings, how is it that your clients get the drawings and the related projects? I doubt they are stealing the drawings. It is fairly certain that the water tower's owner has rights to the plans.
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thanks "TheTick". ...like this project, my other clients are hired by Owners to make revisions or additions to their property (whether it be a water tower, bldg, single apt). i just assume my clients get the paper drawings from the owners, and then i create CAD versions of them. it seems ethically sound to me??? ...i'm trying to learn more about what i should be aware of in my dealings with paper copies of drawings.
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Either the EOR mislabeled the drawings, or they belong to the original client, or they belong to the EOR because the client didn't pay for everything. There is no way to guess which one, without having the original contractual documents.
These sorts of things occur in aerospace all the time, and without some knowledge of the contractual obligations, it's a minefield.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
These sorts of things occur in aerospace all the time, and without some knowledge of the contractual obligations, it's a minefield.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
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The person responsible is the engineer of record who will sign the final drawings you produce. The content of many details you see on other firms drawings may contain interpretation of code requirements in which case copyrights do not apply. Anything beyond code, proprietary content, patented content, one should be cautious.
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MechEng2005
Mechanical
My (non-legal) opinion would be that if the original watertower drawings were given to the client by the design company, they become available for use with the exception of reverse engineering and selling the same item. Using them to create the same or similar watertower would not be acceptable. However, what you are selling is the anti-corrosion system. As TheTick pointed out, copyright protects from the sale of others' work. You are clearly selling your own work, not the watertower.
If you went and took measurements of the tower, noted materials, etc, you could probably reproduce the drawings anyways, and I don't see an ethical or legal problem with this (unless you did build and sell a watertower based on the information). The drawings just make it easier.
-- MechEng2005
If you went and took measurements of the tower, noted materials, etc, you could probably reproduce the drawings anyways, and I don't see an ethical or legal problem with this (unless you did build and sell a watertower based on the information). The drawings just make it easier.
-- MechEng2005
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I've been looking into copyright laws on Architecture, and it seems I need a good interpretation of them. It seems the drawings don't need a stamp to be protected. Even though my purposes are harmless, I still may need permission. Ugh! I'm trying to figure this out so I can avoid requesting anything impractical from this client, or any future prospective clients. Once I'm considered impractical I'll get awarded no projects.
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davidbeach
Electrical
I would think that trying to use the copyrighted drawings to produce another water tower would be a clear violation of the copyright. To use the drawings as a source of information about the water tower for subsequent work would fall under the fair use provision. Presumably you are interested in "quoting" a small portion of the copyrighted work rather than a wholesale copying of everything.
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DonPhillips
Structural
I typically word my contracts that the client shall provide to me a copy of whatever documents I am working from, as a condition of my contract. I assume the client secured permission from the owner of the intellectual property (IP) and I have no duty to the IP owner. Perhaps I should go farther and specifically state my assumption to make it clear.
Don Phillips
Don Phillips
I think that would be a prudent thing to do. In aerospace, there are often "limited use" rights assigned to the customer, so he has the right to use or copy some things for himself, but he might actually not be allowed to provide them to a third party, particularly if that party is a competitor to the originator of the IP.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
TTFN
FAQ731-376
Do you need to copy the entire drawing? Realistically to do a refurbishment you need much less information that the original construction drawings needed. So draw only what you need to and then they will be sufficiently different that there will be no issue.
afterall, how do they know that you copied it from their drawings or measured it on site.
We have done this type of thing dozens of times with no issue.
afterall, how do they know that you copied it from their drawings or measured it on site.
We have done this type of thing dozens of times with no issue.
civilperson
Structural
Redraw at a different scale, use a different font, locate dimensions along a different face, etc. This negates any "COPY" concerns! However, I would make a site visit to confirm as-built correctness.
dougantholz
Structural
First, I'm not a lawyer only an Engineer.
This seems to be a simple case of intellectual property. If you are representing the existing structure in your drawings as "existing" then what you are doing is both ethical and reasonable. Could you field verify the conditions you are showing?
It is quite often we take whatever existing drawings are available if we are doing an addition (horizontal not vertical) to a building and try to incorporate the salient parts into our contract drawings. We pull off sizes and put a +/- on dimensions but represent the information as "as drawn" unless we have been paid to field verify something. The copyright law in the US is state by state, but basically it protects the original producer from you coming in, copying the drawing and then building a new tower from those drawings and selling it.
This is very similar to a recent case where the Harry Potter Author JK Rawling sued an author who heavily borrowed material from her books to produce a "compendium". This compendium was material that had already been published on a free website, but because the author of the compendium wanted to sell the book for a profit the Judge found it "infringed" upon the creation of the original author. If the book contained more original content and didn't rely as heavily on borrowed material, then it would have been acceptable.
In this case you, and the company that hired you, is creating a new product, that while it is important to have the information on the original design, creates your own product.
This seems to be a simple case of intellectual property. If you are representing the existing structure in your drawings as "existing" then what you are doing is both ethical and reasonable. Could you field verify the conditions you are showing?
It is quite often we take whatever existing drawings are available if we are doing an addition (horizontal not vertical) to a building and try to incorporate the salient parts into our contract drawings. We pull off sizes and put a +/- on dimensions but represent the information as "as drawn" unless we have been paid to field verify something. The copyright law in the US is state by state, but basically it protects the original producer from you coming in, copying the drawing and then building a new tower from those drawings and selling it.
This is very similar to a recent case where the Harry Potter Author JK Rawling sued an author who heavily borrowed material from her books to produce a "compendium". This compendium was material that had already been published on a free website, but because the author of the compendium wanted to sell the book for a profit the Judge found it "infringed" upon the creation of the original author. If the book contained more original content and didn't rely as heavily on borrowed material, then it would have been acceptable.
In this case you, and the company that hired you, is creating a new product, that while it is important to have the information on the original design, creates your own product.
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