Working with homeowners and their foundation issues... 2

[Ben29]

I receive so many phone calls from homeowners requesting structural engineering services that it's getting hard to ignore, especially in this economy. I would say 95% of homeowners are calling about their foundation. Is it possible to take these jobs and still protect myself legally? I'm not going to certify foundations - and I will make that abundantly clear. But I am sure I could help these people and make a profit while doing it.

Has anyone had good experience working with homeowners in this capacity? Any advice? Should I just stay away?

 

[MotorCity]

Have not done it myself and would not do it simply because I'd prefer not to work for home owners that are not well versed nor accepting of general engineering principles. That said, there is a market for it and there are folks out there who make this their bread and butter, so it is possible. The question is....is the money worth the headache?

 

[jayrod12]

What sort of help do you think you'd be providing?

In my neck of the woods, all of the foundation contractors have their preferred engineer. We are that firm for one or two of the company's but for most of them we're "too expensive".

If you're just going in and providing a condition assessment with potential foundation remedial work recommendations then I could see that being an option, but make sure they're aware of your scope up front.

 

[phamENG]

If you can't find any other work, sure, make some money while you look for better work. But these can be tough and, on balance, usually aren't worth it.

These generally fall into one of three categories:

1) It's not a foundation issue at all and you can easily identify the problem with the framing. If you're lucky, you can point to a section of the IRC and put in your report that if a licensed contractor modifies X to meet section 123 of the prescriptive code, you'll be okay. They get it fixed, they're happy, you never hear from them again. You can make some money on these. If it's more complex, and you need to a design with a drawing (even if it's just a sketch), your fee will blow most of these people's minds. I've done work for a few doctors and lawyers who get it and pay without question. But anyone not accustomed to hourly billing and professional services usually freaks out, will sometimes call you names, and quite often refuse to pay even for the initial inspection. These are harder to make money on, but the ones that do move forward and actually pay you can be fairly profitable. But again, balanced against those that fall through, it's hard to call the pursuit of this kind of work profitable.

2) It is a foundation issue and you can see it, plain as day. Great big crack up the side of the wall and, when you dig up the footing, it's cracked, too. These can be hard - you have to work with the client to understand how long it's been going on, where this falls within the history of the structure, any recent work done, etc. If you determine that it's been like this for 20 years and hasn't moved much, then you have to figure out if it has reduced the reliability of the structure. If it hasn't, or at least not to a significant degree, then you have to work with the owner to find out if they're okay with it as is or if they want it fixed (most foundation companies will use words like "need" and "should" to help drive sales). So there's a lot of hand holding and management of expectations and you may find it difficult to get compensation for that extra effort.

3) It's inconclusive. This happens a lot. It may be settlement, possible thermal, but you don't know and can't know without collecting data and observing long term trends. Nobody wants to hear this. You may not get paid because they'll feel like it's your fault that you don't have the divine gift of understanding everything that has happened to a structure just by laying your hands on the front door jamb.

 

[dik]

I suspect there will be a lot of foundation issues in the future, in particular on clay type soils. With changes in climate, many areas are becomming dry, and the soil desicates and shrinks. This can lead to cracking. Depending on the type of soil, this may occur over a couple of years or a couple of decades.

The type of work, lends itself to well crafted report templates, that can be prepared quickly for numerous projects.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[LittleInch]

See

https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=498360

as there are many posts which address this.

Biggest issue is that there are two different worlds at play here - The professional, industrial one where Engineers get paid reasonable money and are given the budget and time to do it properly and the domestic / post tax disposal income one where there is no time to do anything reasonable and the budget that is available barely covers going out there to see it, never mind anything else.

As for what it then costs to actually repair it, many / most would need to either raid their savings or take out another loan or extend their existing one, which is super painful when all they want is for someone to tell them it's not a problem.

Many very small projects take more time and money than they are worth, but maybe do 10, get a cut and paste report set up and "invest" some of your time and money to do this, then maybe, but as someone says on the attached thread, few will pay more than $5-600 for an inspection, but somehow expect $5-6,000 worth of time and effort. From 10 people, 5 will pay after a month or so, 3 will pay after you spend several hours chasing them and 2 won't pay at all. Or INSIST on money upfront. That puts most of them off, but then you've lost all that time giving them a quote. Or just get a simple starter quote applicable to any enquiry for that amount upfront and say this is just to come and see it plus a 2 pagr report and some phtos, with about 5 pages of exclusions and conditions.

There's a reason you'll be getting a lot of calls - that's because no one wants to do it or is quoting sum in excess of $1500 I suspect.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[dik]

... and maybe a 'Law World', too.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[KootK]

I'm of the mind that anything can be made to work from a business perspective if you understand the landscape and adapt to it accordingly.

When I do this kind of stuff, I tell the owners that I expect to collect payment before I leave from my visit to the property (check/cash/app) and before I write any reports etc. This makes at least half of them disappear, which is great if they would not have been comfortable with the bill anyhow.

I've had a number of experiences with homeowners that have been quite positive. I've often been able to put a fellow homeowner's mind mind at ease which always feels good. Granted, basement issues tend not to be too severe in my area. Four times out of five, I recommend nothing more than keeping an eye on the situation which ends up being easy money.

Of course, if you're not comfortable trading risk for compensation, this is probably not for you.

 

[phamENG]

I've often been able to put a fellow homeowner's mind mind at ease which always feels good.

This is a good point. Those times when there's a real problem, I can identify, and get them moving on a path to fix it that doesn't involve $32,000 in helical piles with retrofit brackets beneath their footings, and they are genuinely grateful....it feels amazing. Probably some of the best days at work. Now the fact that I work alone in my house and eng-tips accounts for about 75% of my interaction with other human beings that aren't emails to architects may influence that a bit. But, again, they don't pay a whole lot. So do I chase bigger projects that are difficult, isolating, and let me buy a boat? Or do I chase small projects with a poor risk/reward balance but might brighten somebody's day? Not one of the decisions I thought I'd be making when I started my business...

 

[KootK]

So do I chase bigger projects that are difficult, isolating, and let me buy a boat? Or do I chase small projects with a poor risk/reward balance but might brighten somebody's day?

The first one. A nice boat can improve mental health markedly. And the basement stuff just isn't that interesting to many of us frankly. That's the primary reason that I don't do a whole lot of it.

on a path to fix it that doesn't involve $32,000 in helical piles with retrofit brackets beneath their footings

Yeah. I do another thing that warrants mentioning. Before I agree to do the initial review, I make it clear that I may well wind up sending them to someone else for the development of a repair if one is necessary. Almost no home owner has any repeat work potential other than word of mouth stuff. For that reason, I can't allow myself to get swallowed whole by some excruciating repair assignment while I underperform on jobs that are more important strategically.

 

[PEinc]

All good answers. In my experience, rarely are home owners ready and willing to pay a reasonable engineering fee or pay for the required repairs.

http://www.PeirceEngineering.com

 

[JStructsteel]

I do maybe a dozen a year off maybe 20 requests. I look a a crack, beam or foundation that is an issue to a home inspector and they say to get an engineer. Most times its a non issue. Most times the report is all that is needed. Some balk at the cost....A few cancel because they "Went with their sisters friend", aka found someone cheaper. I have had some try to negotiate, I usually tell them that perhaps I am not the right guy.

Its good filler work if not too busy.

 

[XR250]

I do these all the time and have no problem getting paid well or satisfying the homeowners.
I do vet the project and customers pretty thoroughly prior to agreeing to come out in order to manage their expectations.
Most of them occur during Real Estate transactions where my fee pales in comparison to their asking price or due diligence money.
Different market conditions I suspect.

 

[Greenalleycat]

Disclaimer: I work in a different country with different laws

Foundation issues are rife here thanks to our city being built on mostly old swamp and then having been through an earthquake.
We have really old housing stock here too, and historic construction methods were largely shit (stacked bricks, riverstones, etc in foundations, minimal cement, and so on)
All in all it makes for a tough environment to be a foundation

Our line of work involves dealing with homeowners and their foundations a lot
Sometimes that can be really challenging - if someone has a poorly built, earthquake-damaged foundation sitting in topsoil over crappy liquefaction-prone ground, current laws don't really give us much option

What I have learned is two parts
1) Make sure your clients are very clear about what they are wanting - if they want a foundation assessment, then make sure they know what that means to them. Get it in writing from them if possible or have a meeting/phone call then send them a written summary of what you understand that it is they want

2) Be upfront with your clients about the risks / potential challenges / whatever, based off what it is that they say they want you to do

They may not like what you give them, but as long as you're straight up about it, they can hardly blame you

 

[epoxybot]

Is definitely pays to know your prospective client. Keep in mind that a corporate executive might be entitled to free representation from corporate counsel. My brother learned this the hard way. A $3500 dollar dispute cost him $40k when all was said and done.

 

[skeletron]

We must have the same phone number; I get a lot of these calls too. KootK is giving some pretty good advice that I have subscribed to in this realm. Filter clients using a preliminary boots-on-the-ground pre-paid assessment report with no guarantees for a fix. IME it's a piece of mind report so that they know it's a $5000 or $50000 fix before buying a house. Your report has to be dialed in to acknowledge how you came up with your assessment and what it does not cover. I think that this is where the work needs a bit of a gut check with who the client is. You need to suss that out yourself, and sometimes the filtering plays a good role in that process.

 

[LittleInch]

I do vet the project and customers pretty thoroughly prior to agreeing to come out in order to manage their expectations.

This is the Key = HOW do you actually do this?

List of questions?
A form for them to fill in?
A chat over the phone?
A search on google of them?

That though is a cost in time and possibly search fees.
So the question then is how may out of say 50 requests, do you bin before doing the work?

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[CrabbyT]

So do I chase bigger projects that are difficult, isolating, and let me buy a boat? Or do I chase small projects with a poor risk/reward balance but might brighten somebody's day?

Do both, just don't stretch yourself too thin. Having a fat bank account will help you sleep better at night, and it will afford you the time to brighten peoples' days more often.

For example, I had a client whose house burned down. The 1st floor was fine more or less, but the 2nd floor and roof were destroyed. They wanted to tear the 2nd floor/roof off and rebuild it themselves. The building official needed a letter from a structural engineer stating that the exterior walls were structurally sound. They didn't have much money, and there was a bit of a language barrier. I charged em 1 hour and felt pretty good about it.

 

[milkshakelake]

I agree with everyone. To add my 2 cents, I barely work on houses at all, including major renovations. Besides the problems with the communication, expectations, and work itself, larger buildings pay better for similar amounts of work. I'm blessed with a market that has a bunch of larger buildings. But if the economy gets worse, I might have to dip into the house market; one of my colleagues did that and is doing fine. On the plus side, I can see it being a lot easier to market and get tons of work with houses, because there are a myriad houses for every multistory building.

 

[Craig_H]

One caveat to what has been mentioned above... Homeowners are emotional penny pinchers EXCEPT when there is a real estate transaction underway. All of a sudden, costs are obscured within the mountain of money involved in the purchase/sale contract, and a few thousand here and there is no big deal. We humans are truly irrational beings sometimes.

I recently gave a potential home-buyer an estimate and contract for repairs that were initially flagged by a home inspector. I made it clear that I'm only looking at things that have been identified by the home inspector (limits risk). I advised the client to take my fee estimate, along with estimates from a recommended contractor for repair, add a generous factor, and apply that as a holdback on the purchase. This makes my potential client see the fees as being paid by the seller, which makes things less emotional. We'll see how this pans out, but this may be one way to get sufficient budget to actually do the work properly.