Would required licensure be better for US engineers? 15

[Haf]

I have heard the argument that if all engineers were required to get a PE (or comparable professional licensure), the profession would be better off. I am interested to hear from engineers in countries where licensure is required (Canada, Europe, Australia, and others) to get some insight into this question. Ideally, I’d like to hear from people who have practiced engineering in a country that requires licensure and the US (which does not).

Frankly, I’ve seen the US slammed in several posts for not requiring licensure. I’m curious to know how much better things are for engineers in countries that require licensure. I’m also curious to know how much better public safety is in countries that require licensure.

Haf

 

[EdDanzer]

The down side of requiring a license is it will limit the number of people contributing to product design. Most products must be safe, but just because a licensed person stamped the design does not mean the design is good or safe.
Most innovations are by people who are not degreed or licensed in the field of the innovation, yet it may take degreed and licensed people to get these ideas to the public.

 

[GregLocock]

Licensure is not required in Australia for all engineers.

Mechanical engineering seems to be virtually unregulated in Oz, from a practical point of view. sc will know the score on the civil side.



Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[rquerin]

EdDanzer,

Why will this limit the number of people contributing? Are you assuming that if licensing became required that people wouldn't meet the requirements or that people just wouldn't bother getting the license and move on to another field.

 

[BobPE]

EdDanzer

"Most products must be safe, but just because a licensed person stamped the design does not mean the design is good or safe."

No it doesn't mean that it made the product safe. It means that someone looked at it that meets the requirements to take a standard test....This means that not just anybod can review it.

The licensed person also has control of the whole design he stamped, so he is familiar with the entire project from conception to finish...I dont think its a bad thing to have a person like that look a project over...

You think that is a bad idea? I just want to make sure I get what you are saying...

BobPE

 

[buzzp]

I met some engineers that worked out of mexico (South America). I have no idea of the requirements in mexico as far as engineering goes but they were telling me that when you are an engineer there, people call you 'engineer ____'.
Much the same way as someone with a PhD is a 'Dr.' They are highly respected members of society. Perhaps someone here knows about the engineering environment in S.A.

 

[TheTick]

My driver's license made me a better driver.

My fishing license made me a better fisherman.

I can't wait to see what magical imporovement happens when I get a PE license!

I may make you feel, but I can't make you think.

 

[BobPE]

buzzp:

I have several engineer friends the came here from India. Engineers there are held in higher regard than Dr.'s...They are very disappointed about how engineers are treated here...

I have no experience in S.A. with their engineers although I have done several projects there...I know their regulatory agencies like American PE's...

TheTick

It will be a glorious day when you get your PE, you will have to let us know how you feel after you get it and how we can help you to get more of your collegues to get theirs...

BobPE

 

[Haf]

BobPE,

Is licensure required in India? I would love to hear from your Indian engineer friends. So far, there have been no real responses to my specific question above from engineers that have worked both in the US and in a country that requires licensure. I am genuinely interested in this. I am also interested in things like why your Indian friends moved from India to the US (there's a big difference if it is professional vs. personal).

Also, for the record, Mexico is in North America, not South.

Haf

 

[buzzp]

Haf, Sorry I majored in Electrical Engineering not geography (typo-LOL).
BobPE, I will certainly let you know when I get it, if I do. I honestly dont see any benefit with my background but I may need it some day. I am not against the PE just thought those that say your not an engineer unless you have a PE are entirely wrong and are not familiar with the many career opportunities to engineers in general (ie, not all are consultants, not all hire out to the public, etc.) (not saying this is you either). You have heard me say this in several posts but what value do you see for a registered engineer in the electrical design world? I remember your example in some other post with a company outsourcing and several engineers (with the company that outsourced) were not allowed to work on the project. But whats to stop them from getting a different job with a different company as a design engineer? BTW, I am not in the 7% of unemployed EE's.

 

[EdDanzer]

BobPE,
When we design a product and need a PE they can only make limited changes to the design. The reason for this is our customers need products that have several disciplines required to make a complete product. We do true collaborative design and design for manufacturability. There is no PE degree for machining and fabricating skills, yet people skilled in these trades can reduce the cost of manufacture by 50% if included in the basic design process. If a person has the skills of the PE’s I’ve hired, they don’t have the time or need to know the details of manufacturing and assembly, just keeping up on all the regulations in the US is a job in it’s self.

 

[dpa]

I got my PE and am really glad to have it. There are restrictions on what an unlicensed engineer can do and that's good.

I passed the PE in one try but to be honest a one day exam cannot pose real world problems. Most of what I do is far more complicated and time consuming than anything I did on the PE.

On the other hand I have seen engineers who do not know the basics. Some were licensed but most were not. In an ideal world management would be able to recognize this but often they are too busy with other things.

 

[ClydeMule]

Engineering licensure is for when engineering is being sold as a service to the public. There is no point to licensing every engineer because not every engineer sells his or her services to the public.

What is the point of getting a PE license have Boeing hire you as the left wing eleveator mounting bracket rivet engineer? That is what your degree is for. In situations like this, require PE licensure is superflous.

Having you PE means you passed a test. It doesn't mean you are good engineer.(I Not having a PE doesn't mean you are a bad engineer. I have met plenty of knucleheads either way. But to protect the public, the government sets minimum standars (measured by an exam) that an engineer must meet. Having your contractor's license is the same thing. You can have your license but do lousy work.

I am a PE by the way, but work for a manufacturer, not a consulting firm. Am I a better engineer? Not really. Only in the sense that I can broaden my engineering experience by working as a consulting engineer, and do it legally. It won't help at all for this heat exchanger mixing thingy I am working on for homebrewed beer. It doesn't help me or my employer to make a better machine. It helps me sell more when I try to meet with a PE and try to get him to spec my stuff.

CLyde

 

[Miper]

If an engineering school in the USA can show that its students meet certain standards, then that school is accredited by the Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology (ABET). Roughly 330 schools in the USA now have this accreditation. Many companies consider an engineering or Engineering Technology degree to be real only if it comes from one of these schools.

While Civil Engineering and utility work typically require final signature by a licensed engineer, not many other engineering jobs in the USA require a license. In aerospace, for example, the license is not considered important and it is hard to see how it would make the engineers any better or any more respected.

India is a special case, and their engineering graduates deserve considerable respect. Their educational standards are very demanding. IIT and the state technical universities of India are highly respected worldwide. In my experience, Indian engineers tend to be more comfortable with analytical engineering than design engineering, but that isn't necessarily an intrinsic difference and it is certainly no fault. Their contributions to the art and practice of engineering have been great.

The best analytical engineer I ever worked with was an Indian with no engineering license, and the best designer was an American with no engineering degree or license. The most prolific and successful aircraft engineering department in the world has 1,000 people, but only a handful are licensed engineers.

My father used to administer the professional engineers licensing exams in his region. It was a worthy effort and it seemed important, especially with all the projects that required licensed engineers. But I never needed it. It just depends on what type of engineering you want to do.

 

[Cheeseburger]

Personally I'm tired of hearing all this stuff about whether or not Engineers should be REQUIRED to get licensed. I think it's a crock and it should be dropped.

Lets break it down (although I'm only speaking about ME's since that's what I'm most familiar with) ... today a good ME Degree program can take anywhere between 4 and 5 years. Now if you go to a reputable college or university you should be getting a very good education. Now unless things have changed since I’ve graduated, the studying, testing, and design projects required for graduating (not to mention the work you get involved in if you get tagged by a professor working on a side project for some company or government) is, in my opinion, more than enough to qualify you as a Mechanical Engineer.

If you decide that after a few years working in the field that a BS isn’t enough and you go to graduate school and earn a Masters Degree in some specialized field of ME then so be it. A Master degree not enough, you then go for a PhD. But whoa … wait a minute, there’s something else now, a PE !!! Where will it stop ??? What will be next … Super Professional Engineer ???

I worked with one gentleman who was at the time the Mechanical Engineering Manager of a medical device company in the Boston, MA area. Probably THE smartest guy I’ve ever worked with or ever will work with. He’s designed probably half the company’s product line. What’s his degree in … Earth Sciences !!! Do you think the company he works for is going to require him to get his PE or think about letting him go because someone comes along and applies for a position there ??? I think NOT.

So in my opinion, if you want to become a PE, then fine go ahead, but if not, then so be it as well. But I don’t think it should be a requirement for any position. As other people have said before me, I’ve seen really intelligent engineers both degreed and not, and I’ve seen idiots who have degrees up the kazoo.

But that’s just my opinion …

Brian Mazejka

 

[buzzp]

Star to cheeseburger and other 2 previous posts.

 

[Haf]

While I agree with Cheeseburger and Miper, I must say that no one has really answered the original question posed in this thread.

The reason I started this thread was because I was tired of hearing about how licensure should be required for all engineers, and how we would be better off if universal licensure was required. Only theoretical arguments were offered to back up these viewpoints. Being more of an experimental guy myself, I challenged someone to give specific examples of how engineers (or public safety) in countries that require licensure (are there others besides Canada?) are better off.

Personally, I think the US system (PE required for some things, not for others) works just fine. I also think that engineers in the US are as well-respected and well-compensated as engineers in other countries (perhaps even more so).

Haf

 

[EddyC]

The issue of eliminating the industrial exemption and requiring all engineers to get a PE is a topic that draws out strong opinions from many individuals. I myself am somewhat neutral on the subject. Both sides on this issue bring up many good points.

Most of the engineers that I have met, by nature want to do a good, professional job. Unfortunately, I have also had the displeasure of meeting some that were unethical. I have also met others who used the title "engineer" falsely. These particular people either didn't have licenses or accredited degrees. Others had no degree from anywhere.

This can be considered food for thought.

EddyC

 

[Bbird]

I have worked on overseas projects most of my time and offer my angle into the thread.

It is a fact of life that there a lot of engineers without professional qualification who are excellent technically. Many of them are so good that they feel no necessity to prove themselves. And equally many professional qualified engineers do not measured up to the standard worthy of our respect.

Some European countries do engineering in a 5-year academic course in university and their graduates enjoy a status similar to architects and Doctors who also have to do similar length courses. Mexico engineers could follow the same scheme. I follow a British system and did a 3-year course. To become a chartered engineer I need at least another three years practical experience, sit for examination, attend interview and pass before qualified. In comparison to the other European engineers we appear less academically minded (for having two years less theoretical study) but more practical. In dealing with European engineers my experience is the British engineers come out just about equal. I am fortunate in a way that I also did a Ph D and therefore always taking a keen interest to learn from other fellow professionals.

The licensing aspect of the engineering profession is not universally enforced and should not be taken as a guarantee for good engineering as many of us already stated. What I have found in my experience is that an engineer can only improve if he or she is given responsibility match the professional development. In this respect a licensed engineer is exposed an environment of more responsibility than one without a similar qualification. Over a period of time we can expect a licensed engineer could become more experienced in making important decisions as he is, should I say, more legally suitable for being sued for his mistakes. He will not last long if he is not careful with every decision and design he makes professionally.

I work normally as an European engineer outside Europe and it is sad to see many engineers from other countries, qualified to the same academic level but playing a relatively small part in the project for also a small reward. I do not believe I am better than them but the clients prefer me because I have done it before. The engineers playing a small part can the same opportunity to get involved but they don't want to take up the responsibility as they consider their pay doesn't warrant the risk. So over the years I do discover the licensing aspect can make an engineer more experienced, force him to learn more and faster, trained to make the right judgment under pressure and come out a better engineer overall simply because the exposure to responsibility. Being put on the spot and relying on only one's engineering knowledge and skill to come out alive is a very important quality needed by every engineer.

In conclusion my message is that a professional qualification is not a guarantee for a good engineer but if the engineer is good he should be able to handle the deep end, which is the licensed position.

 

[RDK]

Most anti mandatory license posts that come from US engineers revolve on two main themes.

I know some idiots who are licensed.

Or

My industry does not require licensing so why should I get it?

As to the first, yes there are some idiots with engineering licenses out there. There are also some idiots with driver’s licenses out there but that does not stop anyone from driving. Just because the process allowed someone who you feel is un-qualified to become an engineer, why should that stop you from proving that you are at least as qualified as they are.

If your industry does not require licensing, then why not? What is it about some industries that make them less of a risk to public health and safety than others? A badly designed baby carriage can kill just as a badly designed building can collapse and kill someone.

Some industries have qualifications that are said to be harder to get than a PE and more relevant to being an engineer in that industry than the PE process. My response to that is why not make that qualification (plus academic and experience requirements) a sufficient condition to becoming a PE?

This does not mean that the US path to becoming licensed is a good one and cannot be improved. Under the US system, performance on two one day exams, one of which is open book and both are multiple guess format, is the main gateway to entry to the profession.

Exams are a bad gateway for two reasons. Firstly it is impossible to simulate the range of actual practices and procedures that exist in a real professional engineering job. The questions that I have seen are of the type of how much water will flow in this pipe. The real question is to first determine how much water you need to be able to drain, examine the use and application and then pick the material and size and slope necessary to do this with full regard for safety, economy and durability.

Secondly the exams have trouble keeping current with the vast range of engineering. The electrical exams have been said to be mostly generation and power transmission related. This does not adequately test the knowledge of someone who is an electronic designer.

I am Canadian. We have mandatory licensing. If you are not a P.Eng than you cannot legally call yourself an engineer nor can you practice engineering. There is no industrial exemption.

In the US any idiot can call himself an engineer. Anyone wonder why the profession is not as highly thought of in the US as is the case elsewhere?





Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com