Would you go back?

[nuche1973]

Several months ago, me and my cad-tech were laid off. Call this person my cad tech because he and I worked together for nearly 4 years.

The company's stance on training was that if a person, cad techs in particular, wanted additional training, they would have to accquire it on their own. I didn't agree with this policy because it meant that our cad technicians were at different levels of expetise and ability. Which leaves the engineers in a position to either train as they go along or draw their own projects. The majority of engineers did their own drawings. (Ironically they used the excuse that the cad tech's were not knowledgeable to fully draw the projects!)

So, I took this person under my wing and everytime we started a new project, we had an unofficial training session. As you can imagine the more we worked together the more proficient he became. He eventually became my "go to guy" and I could rely on him to coordinate other cad techs. So, that's it for the back story, now on to my question.

As I stated before, we were laid off at the same time. I found employment with another company in another city. He remained in the same small city and is still unemployed. Moving is an option, just not viable, right now. He has been looking but the offers have been few. Recently, he contacted me and said the old company wanted to interview him, for a different department (we were structural, the interview was for an electrical position). He went. It went well and they offered him a job, at the same pay. The attraction is that he learned BIM, Inventor, and Revit, all on his own. I feel that he should at least get a small raise. Since he has shown the initiative to learn new skills at his own expense. I also feel that the old company is taking advantage of him and at least make the offer comparable to his experience.
I am curious to see what your input on this.

Would you go back? If, yes, would you go back at the same pay scale? Especially when another layoff arises, you'll be the first for consideration (last in, first out).

There are days when I wake up feeling like the dumbest man on the planet, then there are days when I confirm it.

 

[ewh]

I think that much depends on the tech personal situation... if he has a support network to see him through until he finds suitable employment, then I am with you; he is worth more than when he was let go. If he doesn't have a support network, his best option may be to take the position and continue the job hunt. It's hard to live on pride alone.

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - [small]Robert Hunter[/small]

 

[jmw]

Agree.
The cad-tech has no job and cannot easily move. He could ask for more money but from all you've said, the company isn't about to pay it. They think they have him over a barrel. They probably saved themselves the true costs of recruiting to fill the vacancy by only considering him as a first pass at filling the job. Undoubtedly, if they had to do a full recruitment procedure they would have to pay good money to do so in advertising retaining a recruitment agency and so on and in all probability they'd probably have to pay more to get the candidate they need.

The advise I would give would be for him to take the job but keep looking for another and when he finds it, to take it.

It is always better to look for a job when employed and sometimes easier to secure a job as an employed person than an unemployed person.

From what you have said, this isn't just a company that is tightening its belt but one that has an exploitative attitude to its employees.
They don't show any loyalty to the employees and should not expect the employees to show any loyalty to the company. I wouldn't feel any obligation to them if it were me. If I accepted the job and then found another the next week, I'd take it.
Don't expect management to be happy about it but that's their problem.

I am increasingly of the opinion that many many companies have far less ethical or moral qualities than previously and they will mercilessly exploit any and all workers at all times.

It is a scorpion and frog thing.

Too many incidences of this sort of behaviour mean that employees really have to look after their own interests first. Some things that wouldn't be considered "fair" or "right" in earlier years now seem justified, especially where companies show all the symptoms this one does.

I had a colleague who was dismissed his managerial position in the States (because of internal politics - a brown-noser at work) and recalled to the UK, but he wasn't actually made redundant. They just kept him hanging round till they found a job to offer him. He took it because he had no option but within a couple of weeks he had a far better job offer back in the States.
He accepted.
The CEO was most upset by his behaviour and wrote his new employers a rotten letter. (This is a CEO who probably would sell his granny into slavery to get a few $ ahead)
They laughed.

They had a round of redundancies which cut right across the engineering departments. One redundant long service (20 years plus) engineer was lucky enough to find a new job at a sister company - on the same site - within a week of being made redundant.
SeniormManagement wanted his redundancy pay back (it was sizeable amount because of some special contract terms) or they would block his new job.
A bit of legal wrangling and they backed down. It is a sad fact that the management couldn't be bothered, when making so many redundant, to do the decent thing and pro-actively seek to re-employ as many as possible elsewhere. They did bring in some external consultants as part of the regulations (I think) about trying to place redundant employees other jobs but obviously didn't take it seriously enough to consider advising anyone of vacancies in other parts of the group.

Some years earlier, deciding to close one factory and shift production 15 miles up the road to another factory, they were obliged to offer all the employees redundancy as they couldn't simply relocate them.
For some reason (I'm not sure why) they were able to offer people the option of either new jobs or redundancy payment. Not both. (I think they traded the continued employment status, which may have been worth something but not much).
One employee, the field services manager, with something like 25 years redundancy money on offer, decided he would take the money and set up as a self employed service operation (something another company compelled its service engineers to do when they discovered the cost benefits to the company).
Management were not happy.
He would still be doing exactly the same support job for them and they could have made this work to their advantage.
Instead they blacklisted him and refused to supply him any spares. It is a fair bet that they were going to amalgamate his job with that of the incumbent at the destination factory so I guess they had figured it was cheaper to keep him and make the other guy redundant.

Never give management the benefit of the doubt.
Assume they will never willingly act for the best interests of the employees even when it is in their own best interests too.
So do not automatically grant any employer undue loyalty or regard.
Be pleasantly surprised if they do show signs of humanity but do not trust them even so.


JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[nuche1973]

Thanks for the advice. I reminded my cad tech that these guys would packed us into a room after each layoff and tell us that there wouldn't be any more lay-offs, we were all essential. After two years of this, it go to be a joke.

There are days when I wake up feeling like the dumbest man on the planet, then there are days when I confirm it.

 

[JAE]

"...mercilessly exploit any and all workers at all times."

That is a blanket statement if I've ever heard one.

Workers of the world unite!!

 

[jmw]

JAE, I did moderate my statement by saying "many many companies" i.e. not all.
But just as good managers are as rare as hens teeth, decent employers are similarly rare and are fully prepared to use their "legal responsibility to the shareholders" (primarily themselves) as a justification for any and all behaviour no matter how morally reprehensible.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[JAE]

jmw, yes I saw that. I just sometimes get a little defensive when people start bashing "management" in global fashion. I've been on the technical and management sides (still am) and see both sides of it.

Management may look ruthless and merciless but they are under pressure to do the right thing for not only themselves but their company. And sometimes the right (and moral) thing is to let a worker go to keep the company afloat.

Are there managers who are slime? Yes. But so are there technical "worker bees" who are totally self-interested and in some cases (I won't say many many) unethical and immoral with their dealings with their company.

We are a fallen race, no?

Your bottom line: "employees really have to look after their own interests first" is of course correct. Both employees and management should look after their own interests first.

Good companies have employees and management that do that AND also care about the company and the others wihin it....even if that is their second priority.

 

[SNORGY]

I would have a tough time going back to a company that laid me off. The way I would look at it is that, at that instant in time, their assessment of my worth to them had been measured and communicated, and that those who were *not* laid off were obviously "assessed higher" and "worth more". I would conclude that it was a "fait de complet" insofar as how much more career progress I could make there.

If I had to eat and pay a mortgage, sure, but other than that, I'd be done. No hard feelings, necessarily, but all the same...done.

Regards,

SNORGY.

 

[ajack1]

I am not sure the first in first out thing is that relevant, wouldn’t the same apply wherever he went?

The same applies to the salary what someone was earning a few years ago is irrelevant all that matters is what the company is currently offering verses what another company would offer in the current market place.

I really don’t buy into all this management are all bad these days. I would seriously doubt there has been a better time for people to be able to progress, move around the world, start their own companies or have had better legal protection than they have now.

Those with the ambition, skill, determination and right attitude will get on those that lack it will blame someone else, usually management. Some things never change.

 

[SNORGY]

You can only blame management if they have MBA's.

Not that I am in any way bitter...

Regards,

SNORGY.

 

[KENAT]

Um, if the CAD guy needs a job, and this is the only offer he has, then how much thinking does it take?

Sure, it would be nice, to think that having taken the initiative to improve his skills he should warrant a pay raise compared to when they dumped him.

However, if he was applying at a different company would he feel the same way, or just be grateful he was offered a job?

Plus, you say he's going to be working in a different department, so while his newly acquired skills may be relevant, some of his 'previous experience' may not be. So as a total package maybe he's not worth more money to them. Perhaps if he hadn't acquired those skills he wouldn't have even got this offer.

That said, he may decide to continue actively looking for a more rewarding position with another employer while taking this job. Nothing to say he has to stay with your former employer for another 4 years or whatever it was.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

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(probably not aimed specifically at you)
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[ColonelSanders83]

Thats a right sticky wicket.

A job is a job, and I have personally never been too proud to take an offer when nothing else was available.

That being said, I spent every non-work hour finding something better. Took a while but in the meantime I kept my head above the water.

It's always tough to give decent advice in such situation as I am not the one with all the info and having to make the choice.

I do wish your esteemed colleuge the best of luck in all his endevours.

A question properly stated is a problem half solved.

Always remember, free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it!

http://www.ap-dynamics.ab.ca/

 

[jmw]

At the same company one of the guys was made redundant. Then some time later he was asked to come back. He said yes, no problem but he asked for and got a special clause in his contract that said if they made him redundant again within an agreed period, his redundancy would not only be calculated as if his service was continuous but the amount would be calculated with a a much more generous factor and for some reason (for which I was grateful when my own turn came), the redundancy terms were already significantly better than government minimum requirements.
Well, sure enough, one year later he was again made redundant and this time he was able to set up his own business quote comfortably.

(the contractual conditions were a hangover from the days before corporate ownership.... something they weren't able to do away with under the "harmonisation" process that always follows an acquisition or merger)

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[lacajun]

If I had to take it, I would and continue looking.

I've seen so much bad politics in my jobs I have a very bad taste in my mouth for management. I've had a few good managers but mostly bad ones. It's the binomial distribution thing.

 

[ctopher]

A "CAD tech" sounds like a guy that repairs computers than run CAD.
I assume he is a Draftsman using CAD?

I would never return to a company that laid me off.

Chris
SolidWorks 10 SP4.0
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

 

[looslib]

I was doing some layout formulas for aircraft skins when I got laid-off from one company. I had been working on a reduced work week schedule and working for another company on the 2 days off from my primary job. This secondary job put me on second shift the week after the layoff. About 3 weeks after the layoff, I get a phone call from the first company saying they couldn't figure out hoe to NC program the skins. I proposed an hourly rate and they bulked, so I came down to an agreeable rate and spend 6 hours a day for 2 weeks doing the skins and then 8 hours each night designing airbags.


"Wildfires are dangerous, hard to control, and economically catastrophic."

Ben Loosli

 

[casseopeia]

I would not go back unless desperate. I went 15 months on unemployment. If Mr.CAD guy lasted this long, chances are he can last a bit more. It's too hard to look for another job when working for a sweat shop. Better to tighten the belt and step up the job search. The added bonus is that he can tell his former employer that an offer like that makes unemployment look good.

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump

 

[MortenA]

Dont let pride rule your life (or his for that matter).

But the point about comming back as a consultant at an hourly rate makes sense sonsidering that you think the future may hold more layoff anyway: If they need the person then they will have to accept the higher rate pr. hour.

Best regrads

Morten

 

[ajack1]

Rightly or wrongly most people take redundancy personally, in my experience it seldom is. In the UK at least there are strict guidelines with regard to redundancy it is not a simple matter of getting rid of the “deadwood”. Do that and more likely than not you will face a discrimination charge in court.

Making people redundant remains the most unpleasant part of owning a company, at least for me.

Having said that by doing so you remain in business and can offer employment to some and hopefully take on more people in the future, as seems the case with the OP. Business is like that, many don’t seem to realise that.

Apart from the emotional side what is the difference between going back to a company that laid you off verses going to a company that laid someone else off? The very fact they want you back would seem a positive.

 

[nuche1973]

I had an update with my friend. It turns out that since it is only himself (no wife, no kids) the combination of unemployment and savings is more than enough to cover his basic bills. The only factor under consideration is health insurance. He's still thinking about the offer.

There are days when I wake up feeling like the dumbest man on the planet, then there are days when I confirm it.