Plug-In Hybrids

OK I'll bite.
The reason I haven't purchased a hybred is that it's so much cheeper overall to purchase a used car and all the gas I'll need to run it. ( I have no car payments!!!)

If you really want a disconnactable battery, try putting them in a trailer.

If you want to feed power to the grid, how much should the power company pay you per MJ?

I acknoledge the fuel savings benifit, but has anyone really looked at the total cost of ownership?

A traditional hybrid (Prius) has such a tiny battery that it would not be worth plugging it in. Prius battery is designed for long life, to get that life it only uses about 20% of its capacity, by choice. If you use 100% of its capacity you will kill the battery more quickly.

PH is a bit of a sidetrack - if your electrical generation system is efficient (however you wish to define it) then an EV is cheaper, if not then a conventional turbo diesel is cheaper.









Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

The Prius has a small battery but the battery in the Camry Hybrid reduces the size of the trunk by half.

HAZOP at

A battery designed to permit maximum use of energy from regenerative braking is far from ideal for use as an EV powersource. Think the difference between a deep discharge lead/acid battery (ie. used in a forklift) and a car battery: one is maximized for amp-hours stored whereas the other is designed to provide high currents for short periods.

A true PH will need both types of batteries, or something else (an ultracapacitor etc.) to serve one of the functions. Yet more mass to drag around and space wasted.

Got to say, I love my new Prius- a much larger car than my previous, plenty of cargo space, and better fuel economy so far than my much smaller previous vehicle was giving me. The only downside: the massive price difference for the Prius between Canada and the US: I guess Toyota has us Canadians figured as tree-huggers with our brains totally turned off!

As to the efficiency of using off-peak electrical generation capacity to satisfy some of our transportation needs: it's far less efficient than getting most of the commuters out of their cars and onto public transit. Fleets of EVs at either end of well-served major transit hubs- now we're talking!

If we all had EVs or plug-in hybrids, a great many of us would be charging them during the day (at work) to get home. This would add to power peaks rather than tending to flatten them. And EVs on the road aren't much good for peak-flattening. How many people are going to buy an EV and have it sit in the driveway?

Greg, I thought a major point of Plug in Hybrids was to get over the limited energy storage/range of electric vehicles?

As such are they really a side track or just an interim untill we have better batteries?

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

Using coal to provide the electricity would put us back into economical energy - if global warming continues to stall and people start to see the scam, or if the national labs get to work on alternative energy.

"Greg, I thought a major point of Plug in Hybrids was to get over the limited energy storage/range of electric vehicles?"

Sure and it does so.

...but at a cost approaching that of an EV plus a turbodiesel car (Unsubsidised realistic retail price of the Volt is $48000 according to Bob Lutz).

Carrying two propulsion systems, and a large battery, makes the efficiency rather suspect, and the thing rather expensive. Regen does help reduce the efficiency loss due to the extra mass, but of course small battery *EVs get that benefit as well, in fact that is pretty much what defines the size of the Prius' battery.

So far as batteries go I vaguely remember costs of about $2000 per kWh for LiPoly. I know that will get cheaper in serious mass production.




Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

I would like to be clear on the acronyms used here.

EV is Electric Vehicle, GM is still calling the Volt an EV but the Volt will include a "range extender" gasoline engine. Nissan appears to be designing a "pure" EV.

PH is Plugin Hybrid (Wikipedia uses PHEV). Various automakers and startups are designing PHs. Conversion kits are available to convert some hybrids to PH, including post 2003 Prius models.

HAZOP at

If you want to be precise, the Volt is called an EREV (Extended Range Electric Vehicle). I guess the idea is the Volt is like their (much lamented?) EV-1, but with a range extender. Others call this a PHEV (Plug in Hybrid Electric Vehicle).

And so builds out Tower of Babel...

Sorry - "our" Tower of Babel.

IEEE Spectrum had an excellent article on the topic last month: