Continue to Site

Eng-Tips is the largest engineering community on the Internet

Intelligent Work Forums for Engineering Professionals

  • Congratulations waross on being selected by the Eng-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!

Loss of Pressure in Pump Suction Piping

Status
Not open for further replies.

JJPellin

Mechanical
Oct 29, 2002
2,184
We have a longstanding problem with low suction pressure to a set of vacuum tower bottoms pumps. I will briefly describe the service and the pumps before describing the problem.

The pumps are single stage, double suction, radial split, between bearings, API centrifugal pumps. They are rated for 1200 gpm at 650 feet TDH. There are two identical pumps installed in parallel. One pump is driven by a 3600 rpm steam turbine and is normally on hot standby set up to auto-start if the flow from the main pump is lost. The main pump is driven by a 3600 rpm motor and runs constantly. The spare pump uses about 10 gpm of discharge flow passing backward through the pump to keep it hot.

The service is the bottoms on a vacuum tower in a crude oil distillation unit. The stream is asphalt at about 700 °F with a specific gravity of 0.85 at pumping temperature. The tower is under hard vacuum. At the pump suction flange, the pressure is about -13 in-Hg gauge. The pumps are fairly close to the tower. As a result, the piping includes long, horizontal expansion loops. The original piping drawings show a continuous slope downward from the tower nozzle to the pumps. Over the years, the piping has been completely replaced with a more corrosion resistant alloy. Modeling shows that we have an adequate NPSH margin (5 to 10 feet) under all process conditions. The pumps have double mechanical seals with heavy gas oil barrier fluid controlled to 40 psi positive pressure.

We have had problems with loss of flow for many years. But, following recent work on the vacuum tower, the problem seems to have gotten worse. During normal operation, we experience a sudden loss of suction pressure to both pumps. Pressure can drop from -13 in-Hg down to -21 in-Hg. The flow rate from the running pump drops and level in the bottom of the vessel starts to rise. During some of these events, the flow drops enough to trigger an automatic startup of the spare pump. The operators are able to restore flow by deliberately raising the vessel level even higher. They complete the switch to the spare pump and shut off the main pump.

We have ruled out all of the typical explanations for the drop in suction pressure. They removed the strainer from the bottom of the vessel. There are no suction strainers at each pump. I have a theory I would like to explore. I understand that water systems using gravity flow can experience pressure drops when air pockets restrict the flow. I believe that our suction piping is not properly sloped. The line is unusually large for the flow rate. I think the resulting velocity is too low to carry vapor down to the pumps. And, I think the slope of the line is not enough for the vapor to travel against the flow back to the vessel. This theory requires at least two conditions. There has to be a source of vapor and a local high point in the piping for the vapor to accumulate in. The vapor could come from vaporization of gas oil leaking through the seals of the spare pump.

I am curious if anyone has seen this phenomenon in similar systems. Do any of you have a different explanation for our problem?


Johnny Pellin
 
Replies continue below

Recommended for you

Agreed, these long horizontal suction piping runs with no slope may impede or even prevent reverse flow of vapor back into the tower. Given the high viscosity of asphalt, it would seem inadequate degassing of the tower bottom stream to the pump may be the source of vapor. Would suggest checking if at low liquid level, there is sufficient time for vapor bubble disengagement - you could use a 300micron vapor bubble for a start. Use Newtons Law to compute bubble rise terminal velocity and compare this against liquid velocity acting in the opposite direction. Any changes made to control levels in the tower recently? The lower the control level, the larger will be the average vapor bubble size carried under in to the pump suction. Presume there is a functioning vortex breaker at the tower bottoms exit nozzle. Since this is asphalt, any drop in tower bottoms temp will increase stream viscosity and in turn, also result in more vapor carryunder to the pumps.
 
Thank you, georgeverghese. When they removed he screen from the bottom of the tower, they did install a vortex breaker. Based on pictures, I would expect it to be perfectly adequate. In addition to removal of the bottom screen, the tower had additional modifications that I am not qualified to comment on. I know that they added stripping steam to the lower section. But, this problem was occurring even before that stripping steam was commissioned.

Johnny Pellin
 
How confident are you that the expansion loops are part of the continuous slope?
How much temp do you loose in these lines? Is the visc and dens at the pump correct?
Are you getting enough seal fluid into the system that it could be causing vapor issues?

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, Plymouth Tube
 
We did additional testing. We are now certain that we are leaking gland oil through the seals of the off-line pump, into the process. We cannot tell how much. We are making arrangements to replace those seals. It is very difficult to assess the slope of the line because it is covered in thick insulation and tin. We may have to strip sections of the line to verify the slope. I don't believe we have a significant temperature drop through this line. It is relatively short, traced with 250# steam and well insulated. This line is 12 inch pipe. The total flow rate is in the range of 1000 to 1200 gpm, which is only 3.1 to 3.4 feet per second at these flow rates.

I have attached a link to an article that started me thinking about this potential cause.


Johnny Pellin
 
Here is a portion of the piping Iso showing the intended slope of the lines.

Capture_f0k4be.jpg




Johnny Pellin
 
I have always been amazed that when I want something sloped people want to know how little is OK. As if slope costs money.
5" of drop over 45' of run with 3 elbows in it, I doubt that the drop makes up for friction losses.

Whenever I have used seals with a barrier or flush fluid we had a flow meter in the line so that we knew the fluid flows.
It is a good early warning for seal issues.


= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, Plymouth Tube
 
We have flow meters in our barrier fluid lines. This is a modified Plan 54 pressurized double seal. It is very difficult to detect a very slight internal leak.

Johnny Pellin
 
I do not have experience of this particular application, but where I have had issues of trying to get the vapor bubbles to rise against the flow of the liquid I have elected to have the pipe slope upwards towards the pump. My logic has been to get the two forces trying to move the bubbles (i.e. entrainment and buoyancy) to work together in the same direction.

Katmar Software - AioFlo Pipe Hydraulics

"An undefined problem has an infinite number of solutions"
 
In a vac tower, the high bottoms temp requires a low residence time in the product sump in order to avoid coking of the resid. With low control volumes, this may be one of the reasons why there is poor degassing. Raising the control level leads to higher residence time and better degassing.
 
Is the column trayed or packed?

Good luck,
Latexman

To a ChE, the glass is always full - 1/2 air and 1/2 water
 
The lower sections of the tower use trays of some sort. This is not my area of expertise, so I would not be able to give much details about the design without asking someone to help me.

Johnny Pellin
 
I was just curious. Columns don't usually run "straight-line steady". I think you are working on a worthy solution to the problem, but is anyone looking at the column itself as the problem generator? Maybe it's been ruled out.

Good luck,
Latexman

To a ChE, the glass is always full - 1/2 air and 1/2 water
 
I am starting to see where you are going with this line of questions. My position all along was this: I think we have vapor accumulating in the suction piping. This requires two things: a source of vapor and a local high point to trap the vapor. The only sources of vapor I was considering were vaporized gas oil from the seal barrier fluid and vortex formation in the bottom of the vessel. I was ready to rule out vortex formation since we have a good vortex breaker. I am ready to change the basis of my position. The source of vapor could be a result of tower design and tower operation resulting in poor disengagement of vapor bubbles. And, it might not be necessary to have a true local high point in the piping. It might be enough to have inadequate downward slope given the viscosity and velocity of the flow.

Johnny Pellin
 
Without seeing a P&ID and detailed data, the column could be running slow and periodically "dumping" liquid from the tray above into the bottoms. The bottom tray could be damaged (any upsets/pressure excurions lately) or corroded or not installed correctly. The bottom downcomer could be damaged/corroded/not installed correctly. Etc. Depending on the temperature difference between stages this liquid could flash and create the vapor in the bottoms or in the piping on the way to the pump. Granted, this is a SWAG with no data, but I'm just saying . . . because you said, "We have a longstanding problem with low suction pressure to a set of vacuum tower bottoms pumps" and "But, following recent work on the vacuum tower, the problem seems to have gotten worse". What kind of work? What changed?

Good luck,
Latexman

To a ChE, the glass is always full - 1/2 air and 1/2 water
 
The only changes I am aware of to the tower were the addition of stripping steam just above the bottom section and removal of the "Johnson" screen around the bottom nozzle to these pumps. The internals in the tower were cleaned, inspected and repaired during this work. We have three crude units with vacuum towers of this same type. The people who inspected and repaired this tower are experts worthy of the best facilities in the world. I am confident that the tower internals are properly assembled and in good condition. But, frankly, that is not my expertise. This problem has existed in some form for more than 20 years. It appears to have gotten worse after the recent work. The stripping steam was taken out for several days and that did not solve the problem. I am confident that the addition of the stripping steam is not the cause.

Johnny Pellin
 
Was the pump piping changed during this time?

Good luck,
Latexman

To a ChE, the glass is always full - 1/2 air and 1/2 water
 
Three sections of the piping were replaced during the outage. The spool pieces at the suction to both pumps were replaced to up the alloy to Inconnel. These were considered to be dimensionally "in-kind". Pipe fitters measure with a steel tape, not a micrometer. The new spools could have been slightly shorter or slightly longer than the old one. They are checking these spool pieces for air leaks.

They also replaced a short section of piping right at the vessel nozzle. I am also told that this was "in-kind". I don't know the details on that section. I will check into that.

They are checking these spool pieces for air leaks.

Johnny Pellin
 
I'll go back to the comment that Katmar made, is the resistance to the bubbles moving against the flow enough to allow accumulation?
It is also possible that over time some of the line replacement resulted in a section that is too flat or has a step at a flange that serves to trap gas.
Latexman's comment about unsteady tower operation is actually the problem that I hear about more often.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, Plymouth Tube
 
Thanks to everyone for the comments and suggestions. We have completed the reseal of the stand-by pump. They have completed the inspection of the piping for potential air leaks. Our seal engineer will examine the failed seal and report his findings today. They should run the spare pump to prove it out and put the system back into normal configuration for the weekend. I will review data on Monday for the weekend to see if this had any affect on the issue. I will post any findings or results next week.

Johnny Pellin
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Part and Inventory Search

Sponsor