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Masonry arch form technique

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WARose

WARose

Structural
Mar 17, 2011
5,594
I was eating at a fav restaurant of mine today for lunch. (This place was built as a Tony Roma's....but it's currently a Chinese joint.) I'm always checking out the arches. What has always caught my attention is the bent plate that was used as a support/form that is still there. The really remarkable thing is: it is not anchored to the adjacent abutment. Looks like they made a really shallow notch in the brick and the bent plate just bears against it. (I assume that the thrust & friction combo keeps it in place.)

It doesn't carry much load: its got maybe a foot of masonry above it. (It (by the way) is a minor arch. We are talking maybe a 6" rise over about a 8 feet span.)

Has anyone else seen this technique used? I'm curious as to how common it is. Most times I see the form removed after it is built.



 
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This was the only Tony Roma brick arch I could find. I don't see a plate here. Are you saying there is a steel plate bent to the curve of the underside of the arch in the restaurant you attended?

How was the Chinese food?

image_ojamql.png


BA
 
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WARose:
The arch that BA’s photo shows is probably pretty much just a decorative arch. Years ago, on small arches the masons would just shape some 2x10s to the radius, nail them together, for something to start that soldier course on and remove that form when they were done, and that was that. On bigger arches we welded studs or rebar to the bent pl. which went up into the filled and reinforced central portion of the wall, btwn. the two face wythes. Just above the arch was typically some sort of a reinforced brick/conc. lintel beam which was basically designed as a deep beam to span the opening. That bent pl. was something akin to the bot. pl. on a WF lintel across an opening to carry the brick back into the WF.

Edit: I’ll bet you can find something on these methods and arches in the BIA Tech Notes, that’s what we used as the basis for our designs, that and std. reinforced masonry design. We actually did some half hanging, from above, and half arching vaulted entry ways, fairly low rise, and the like over the years. I never heard of any bricks falling on peoples heads.
 
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Many of the interior masonry arches are a veneer type product. It is applied like tile and mortared (glued) to the wall.

No lintel is required, but I have seen them added for aesthetic reasons and to give the feeling of weight.

The photo that BA posted is definitely one of the adhered veneer products.

Capture_nymeae.jpg
 
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Way back, I've seen flat or jack arches constructed in brick where the mason has built the arch 'shape' in damp sand on plywood and just used the few inches of springing height to create the arch... I also had one project where the mason created a 20'span x 10' high circular arch... beautiful work of art...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik
 
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the image above, and likely the vast majority of brick arches formed in the last century, are as per the method described by JoelTX

faux arches serving no structural purpose, with an adhered tile to "appear" as authentic. construction no different to the tile backsplash in your kitchen.
 
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Are you saying there is a steel plate bent to the curve of the underside of the arch in the restaurant you attended?
Click to expand...

Yep.

How was the Chinese food?
Click to expand...

Fabulous. [smile]

Many of the interior masonry arches are a veneer type product. It is applied like tile and mortared (glued) to the wall.

No lintel is required, but I have seen them added for aesthetic reasons and to give the feeling of weight.

The photo that BA posted is definitely one of the adhered veneer products.
Click to expand...

Agreed. However I am convinced that what I saw had to be the real deal. (In fact, it's just about physically impossible for it to have been anything else.) The brick was in a rowlock pattern/course. And it's dimensions (and other visible details) make it apparent as well.

 
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Got a couple of pics today of the arches in that restaurant. (Sorry it's a little fuzzy.....my hands shake.) In that last one, you can see where the form (i.e. a curved steel plate) meets the abutment (from underneath).

arch1_001_ww1mtn.jpg


arch1_004_ky4pxe.jpg


arch1_006_uxro2j.jpg


[red]EDIT[/red]: One interesting thing about it is where the curved plate meets the abutment....it doesn't line up with a joint. (As I was saying in the OP.) So this baby is being held in place by some sort of friction/bearing.
 
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I'm tempted to think that it's not structural; possibly, they needed to do some sort of modification, like running wires or pipes and the metal was the cheapest way to cover up the resultant hole

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
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I've done stuff like this in the past, albeit for load bearing applications. Even when it's overkill, it often makes $$$ sense to just do whatever it takes to get the masons in and out as fast as possible.

C01_ekbxlj.jpg
 
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I'm tempted to think that it's not structural; possibly, they needed to do some sort of modification, like running wires or pipes and the metal was the cheapest way to cover up the resultant hole.
Click to expand...

I don't think that is the case. These things are sitting out in the dining area by themselves. I can't imagine anyone needing to run pipe through them.
 
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Can you have a close look at the end of the steel plate. It looks like there is fillet weld to an metal insert.

image_oanmr2.png
 
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Can you have a close look at the end of the steel plate. It looks like there is fillet weld to an metal insert.
Click to expand...

Glad you brought that up. It's not a weld....for whatever reason someone actually grinded down the edge (about at a 45) like they were going to do a full pen weld....but it's not there. I stood up on a bench (just underneath the arch) and looked at it closely a couple months back. (The people who work at this place must think I am a nut.)

Like I was saying in a edit to my post with the pics......the plate doesn't line up with a joint in the abutment.....and no slot is cut in the brick (big enough for a pass through). Ergo, it must be being held in place by some sort of friction/bearing. Maybe they wanted a sharp edge for that reason.


 
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My guess work.
.....
Maybe it's one of these:
Click to expand...

Nope to both....like I said: where it ends doesn't line up with a joint.....and it doesn't go into the abutment for any significant distance.

I got my eyeball just about right on it (during that time I stood on that bench I was talking about).....so I'm certain on that part.

 
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Again, not to debating your inspection, but how could there is no joint at geometry change (from arch to flat brick layers)? Do you have any idea how the steel is affixed to the brick arch? Or maybe the lintel provided by bones was used?

image_xxbpcl.png
 
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Again, not to debating your inspection, but how could there is no joint at geometry change (from arch to flat brick layers)?
Click to expand...

Look at my second pic in my post on 18 Dec 20 18:31. That's the side view of the arch in the third pic (i.e. the underneath view of the lintel). Again: it doesn't line up with a horizontal joint in that abutment. I looked at it for nearly a minute to be sure of just that. (Was frankly amazed on that point.)

Do you have any idea how the steel is affixed to the brick arch?
Click to expand...

If you are talking where the steel ends....it looks like they made a slight notch it the brick (thinner than the full thickness of the plate; which explains why they sharpened the edges) and it bears within that.

But that strikes me as wobbly (until you get some load on it to create the kick out). So that prompted this thread to see if anyone has seen this technique (and to find out more about the ins and outs of it).



 
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Okay, it make sense, as the plate did bear on the abutment. Sorry for side tracking the issue.
 
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Okay, it make sense, as the plate did bear on the abutment. Sorry for side tracking.
Click to expand...

It's ok. I stood there in awe of this thing myself. It's another one of those: how did they pull this off?
 
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