Drawing Notes Database

Lomarandil · May 15, 2023

I've taken on the task of moving several parts of our drafting process into.. well, I don't know when. Modernizing it.

As part of that, I'd like to set up a notes database which we can use to validate and quickly generate note sets for our drawings. I'd like it to be at least searchable and taggable. If it has some functionality to quickly input/parse/tag those notes (can be manual, just not tedious), all the better.

I'd imagine there must be some known solutions to this problem. Maybe borrowing from specification writing. Is anyone using something they like?

phamENG · May 15, 2023

I've wanted to, but not sure of a great way to do it. If you're drawing in AutoCAD, then setting up a solution in the Office suite is probably a good bet as you can transfer text back and forth pretty easily with limited formatting loss. Revit...forget about it.

If you wanted to automate it, you could probably create a master note document using word and assign fields to everything that is editable. Then write a macro with a UI that runs you through each field and either gives you a drop down list to choose from or a free form to write it out. When you're done, you have an edited set of notes. Probably a lot of effort to set up...but it means you only edit one master document when things change, and the time savings could add up over time.

dik · May 15, 2023

I keep a fairly extensive set of project notes that I use in lieu of a 3 part spec. It's a text file, that has grown over the decades and is now nearly 500k in file size. I prefer notes to specs. Over the years, you can often find drawings for an old project, but nearly never find specs. I use them in a drawing set, and there will often be two or three pages of project notes only.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

Sparweb · May 15, 2023

Do you want notes at the project level (IE every drawing can refer to a document with Note"1" being the same thing for every drawing that references it).

Or do you want a list of pre-written notes that you can select for any drawing to insert while that drawing is open, customize as you insert, and be sure that there is legible grammatical text every time?

I have done the latter, mostly through the maintenance of multiple drawing templates that are generated from common pieces. In the most efficient case, the border was made once, then imported into the templates, the notes were made once, then imported where appropriate into the templates, and the BOM and other features likewise, made independently and then imported to the template files. Any time the templates needed updating, the source->target process was repeatable fairly quickly. It took a VERY LONG TIME to get this working properly.

dik · May 16, 2023

I edit them as required for each project, and update them as required to make the info current, and include them on the first few sheets. I don't reference them specifically; they are included in the list of drawings on the first sheet, and contractually all drawings are complimentary.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

Lomarandil · May 16, 2023

Thanks Dik. That's about what we do now, but it's very time consuming for us (both to maintain and use across multiple PMs).

Spar, I'm looking for something more like the latter. Although I'm OK if the process doesn't necessarily include the ability to customize fields or insert directly into our drawing. As long as it outputs a text file which can be copy-pasted in (and then edited further if needed).

Celt83 · May 16, 2023

Lo:
Since you've looked into python a little bit take a look at these two modules I've used them successfully for proposal templating and have been exploring use with Structural Notes.
Methods for manipulating Docx Files:Python DocX
Module to implement Jinja2 Templating within Docx:Docxtpl

Something I've been looking at as a means to possibly format notes to various sheet sizes in multiple columns using Jinja2 for elements that would need to be edited on a per project basis: Link

Example:

Lomarandil · May 16, 2023

Let me try describing the ideal workflow differently, to see if that steers the conversation a little better.

Someone (let's be honest, me) will import a few thousand past drawing notes into a database. As part of that import, the drawing notes are validated and (likely manually, hopefully not laboriously) tagged with key identifiers. Timber, bolt, weld, concrete anchor, etc.

Once the system is in place, a PM wants to generate a set of notes for their drawing. They go into this software interface, search for terms which represent different parts of their project (I have timber joists and bolted connections, but no welds), ideally checks a box to select the two or three dozen notes that they need, and then can export that subset of notes to a text file. They can then make any edits to the text file that are needed specifically for that project (e.g. the timber can actually be southern pine instead of DF-L), and send the text file to be copied into the drawing set.

dik · May 16, 2023

It's just me... and I have no difficulty in editing them or keeping them generally up to date. I update them whenever I encounter a change. A year or so back I posted my PEMB notes and there were a coupe of revisions... I hadn't used that part of them for a few years, and updated the PEMB notes. I check them for current code references whenever I use them, and remove withdrawn code references. The manner in which they are written, the current building code reference is the one stipulated.

We have a problem locally where the city code checkers use the code stipulated reference and not the most recent code. The professional association, backs them up. I used to think that engineers were supposed to use the most recent info... go figure. There was an issue in BC a couple of years back where the professional association censured a member for using the latest (and maybe more correct) code requirements. I'm a member, only because I have to be.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

Celt83 · May 16, 2023

yep that is what I pictured.

For me an initial approach would be to generate base text files for each major sections of notes so you'd have a directory with text files titled:
general.txt
loading.txt
wood.txt
concrete.txt
edit: text files will work fine for this but I would personally probably do this with some HTML files so that tables and lists can be implemented easily.

Each of these text files would require that initial time investment of aggregating the drawing notes and validation. At this point you could choose to implement some basic jinja fields for user input like list of live loads for use in the loading text.

Generate a simple form with the check boxes for each major section a user wants with a submit button, and optionally some conditional interface inputs that appear to handle any of the custom jinja inputs you want to use. This step can be accomplished many ways for me Flask would be the most simple for deployment and keeping the primary template files in a centralized location. Alternatively you could generate a simple tkinter or kivy gui and store the script on a central file server that users could then run. On Form submission have some code that at the most basic description does concatenation of all of the text and then writes it out to one custom text file for the user.

For a true database approach I'd be looking into Flask or Django.

The ideal system for this would end up being something similar to SpecBuilder, Link

phamENG · May 16, 2023

Lo - you should be able to do this in excel pretty easily. Once the database is loaded, lock the sheet so nobody can edit it. When they sort they can copy and past into a new sheet, word document, or whatever.

YouTube - Implement Tags in Excel in Seconds

EDIT: Celt's method above will probably end up being better - but this one has a slightly lower barrier to entry (no coding required).

dik · May 16, 2023

From one of my latest projects... The 'red' has to be added. I insert the modified project notes using mtext into cad dwg and then bold the headings. I also insert drawing blocks to show section marks, grade, etc. images.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

dik · May 16, 2023

I don't know what the programs are like, but about 25 years back I started to do a Masterspec based database using an acces db for an 'up to date' 3 part spec and it became unwieldly. It was a good idea at the time, I thought...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

dik · May 16, 2023

I use monospaced font for tables... 'Deja Vu Sans Mono' is close to 'Arial' and you end up with...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

Euler07 · May 16, 2023

Lomarandil:
I'd have a look at "Lintalist". It's a free software that is probably one of the most useful software on Windows. Essentially you press a key (default is capslock), it opens a dialog in which you straight away type, it auto searches and filters the database as you type, then when you find what you're looking for press enter and it runs whatever you selected. The command can be whatever you want, such as inputting text including filling in text variables, or running AHK scripts. It's fully customisable. All the commands are saved in a text file so you could just share the file with everyone.

I use it to open files (eg. type "RHS" and it auto opens the RHS span tables to the specific page I want), but it can literally be used for anything. It also has access to the Windows COM API. You could make it run autocad commands if you want, or simpler just have it auto press space then fill in the command line itself.

dik said:
I use monospaced font for tables... 'Deja Vu Sans Mono' is close to 'Arial' and you end up with...

Hi dik, nothing personal but just wondering why everyone still uses ALL CAPS for the drawing text. Newspapers switched to lower case a century ago. In our office we've been using standard lower case and all the clients prefer it, and it's a thousand times easier to read, especially blocks of notes like you have.
From Wikipedia:

[URL unfurl="true" said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_caps[/URL]]
Readability
Miles Tinker, renowned for his landmark work, Legibility of Print, performed scientific studies on the legibility and readability of all-capital print. His findings were as follows:

All-capital print greatly retards speed of reading in comparison with lower-case type. Also, most readers judge all capitals to be less legible. Faster reading of the lower-case print is due to the characteristic word forms furnished by this type. This permits reading by word units, while all capitals tend to be read letter by letter. Furthermore, since all-capital printing takes at least one-third more space than lower case, more fixation pauses are required for reading the same amount of material. The use of all capitals should be dispensed with in every printing situation.[25]

According to Tinker, "As early as 1914, Starch reported that material set in Roman lower case was read somewhat faster than similar material printed in all capitals."[26] Another study in 1928 showed that "all-capital text was read 11.8 percent slower than lower case, or approximately 38 words per minute slower",[27] and that "nine-tenths of adult readers consider lower case more legible than all capitals".[28]

A 1955 study by Miles Tinker showed that "all-capital text retarded speed of reading from 9.5 to 19.0 percent for the 5 and 10-minute time limits, and 13.9 percent for the whole 20-minute period".[29] Tinker concluded that, "Obviously, all-capital printing slows reading to a marked degree in comparison with Roman lower case."[28]

Tinker provides the following explanations for why all capital printing is more difficult to read:

Text in all capitals covers about 35 percent more printing surface than the same material set in lower case. This would tend to increase the reading time. When this is combined with the difficulty in reading words in all-capital letters as units, the hindrance to rapid reading becomes marked. In the eye-movement study by Tinker and Patterson, the principal difference in oculomotor patterns between lower case and all capitals was the very large increase in number of fixation pauses for reading the all-capital print.[30]

All caps text should be eliminated from most forms of composition, according to Tinker:
Considering the evidence that all-capital printing retards speed of reading to a striking degree in comparison with lower case and is not liked by readers, it would seem wise to eliminate such printing whenever rapid reading and consumer (reader) views are of importance. Examples of this would include any continuous reading material, posters, bus cards, billboards, magazine advertising copy, headings in books, business forms and records, titles of articles, books and book chapters, and newspaper headlines.[31]

Colin Wheildon stated that there is an "apparent consensus" that lower-case text is more legible, but that some editors continue to use all caps in text regardless. In his studies of all caps in headlines, he states that, "Editors who favor capitals claim that they give greater emphasis. Those who prefer lower case claim their preferences gives greater legibility." Wheildon, who informs us that "When a person reads a line of type, the eye recognizes letters by the shapes of their upper halves", asserts that recognizing words in all caps "becomes a task instead of a natural process".[32] His conclusions, based on scientific testing in 1982–1990, are: "Headlines set in capital letters are significantly less legible than those set in lower case."[33]

John Ryder, in the Case for Legibility, stated that "Printing with capital letters can be done sufficiently well to arouse interest and, with short lines, reading at a slowed speed is possible – but in principle too many factors of low legibility are involved."[34]

Other critics are of the opinion that all caps letters in text are often "too tightly packed against each other".[35]

dik · May 16, 2023

I use all caps because the other drawing notes for sections and details are generally upper case... just old school... I should have added that with the large number of drawing notes, I use 5/64 font size... may be tricky with lower case.

Other critics are of the opinion that all caps letters in text are often "too tightly packed against each other".[35 said:

]

Click to expand...

I have no difficulty reading the notes I have pasted above, and my eyesight is slowly getting worse... specially when a ANSI D sheet is printed at 11x17.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

Euler07 · May 17, 2023

Dik, yes you probably use all caps because the other engineering companies use all caps. Obviously I'm not criticising you personally since it is every engineering company. It's just odd that the only reason I find that engineering companies still use all caps is that it's tradition. Even after scientific studies show all caps is harder to read by the general population and all other industries have changed to lower case. I think you'll find if you test changing to lower case then after only two or three jobs you will prefer it. As for the font size, when using lower case I can actually increase the font size by 1.41 times and it fits in the same page area as all caps (as long as you are not using mono spacing).

dik · May 17, 2023

Increasing the font by 1.4 would mean the number of drawing note pages would increase from 4 to 7, or 3 to 6, or whatever... seems a little much. All my details which I often reuse would have to change, too... thousands of them. I think I'll stick with upper case.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

CWB1 · May 17, 2023

Last I checked Y14.5 mandated block lettering unless necessary otherwise.

I've never heard of a notes library per-se'. Corporate standards generally define the required notes but not the verbiage. Ultimately tho most draftees just copy&paste the notes from a similar drawing and the approving engineer adds-to as necessary.

dik · May 17, 2023

I didn't even know there was an ASME 14.5... thanks.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

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