Continue to Site

Eng-Tips is the largest engineering community on the Internet

Intelligent Work Forums for Engineering Professionals

Register Log in
  • Congratulations waross on being selected by the Eng-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!

Cap plates on HSS columns for weather protection 3

Status
Not open for further replies.
bnickeson

bnickeson

Structural
Apr 7, 2009
74
Ran into a first today. We got a call from a contractor that discovered that several feet of water had gotten inside the HSS columns as the fabricator had omitted the cap plates on several of them. Many of these columns already had drywall around them, so they've got to do a bit of work and re-work to adequately drain them and get everything buttoned up again. He is looking for any written requirement or codification that he can use as recourse against the fabricator as I assume they're going to try and recoup the cost from them. Does anyone know if cap plates are a requirement on HSS columns and, if not, if they require weep holes if a cap is not applied?

I did some looking but couldn't find anything in AISC or online.

Thanks.
 
Replies continue below

Recommended for you

Sort by date Sort by votes
Only if specified; I'm not aware that is is standard practice. I review fabricator connections and have a standard line in my review...

DRAIN HOLES AND ‘PLUGS’
-THE NEED FOR DRAIN HOLES OR HDG VENT HOLES HAS NOT BEEN DETERMINED. PROVIDE AS REQ’D.
-EOR/ARCH SHALL CONFIRM THE NEED FOR DRAIN HOLES.
-PROVIDE 3/8” DIA DRAIN HOLES AND ‘PLUGS’ AS REQ’D FOR HSS COLUMNS AND BEAMS.

I edit as needed, but include even if not specified in the construction documents. They may be included in the Specifications which take preference over drawings (usually)... and when reviewing shop drawings, I often don't have access to the Specifications.



-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Are these interior (I assumes so as they are drywalled) I doubt there is any requirement. Can't they just drain the water and and patch the drywall?
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
dik said:
-THE NEED FOR DRAIN HOLES OR HDG VENT HOLES HAS NOT BEEN DETERMINED. PROVIDE AS REQ’D.
-EOR/ARCH SHALL CONFIRM THE NEED FOR DRAIN HOLES.
-PROVIDE 3/8” DIA DRAIN HOLES AND ‘PLUGS’ AS REQ’D FOR HSS COLUMNS AND BEAMS.
Click to expand...

These notes seem to contradict each other. Seems like #1 is all you need.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
It may be a contract management problem... There's a cost for draining and repair and the General is likely going to have the steel fabricator pay for this if specified. Else maybe the General should have protected the columns from getting water. How many columns are involved...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
XR250 said:
Are these interior (I assumes so as they are drywalled) I doubt there is any requirement. Can't they just drain the water and and patch the drywall?
Click to expand...
Yes, interior. I'm surprised that there's no requirement as leaving a tube column open at the top collects water without much of a means of escape without weep holes. In any event, yes, they just have to drain them but I assume that involves punching through drywall, getting some sort of a suction device to get any water below the hole, then re-patching. Not the end of the world but a PITA nonetheless.

In 17 years I don't think I've ever seen a tube column fabricated without a cap plate until now.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote

No contradiction... "I edit as needed," I edit them for each project and delete those not applicable. My exception file is a compilation of notes I've added to drawings over the last 3 years...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik
 
Upvote 0 Downvote

Check the Spec... it may not be on the drawings, but is often included in the specification. If not, the General may be on the hook... he may be responsible for protecting the Work.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Nothing in our specs about it. Not even in the base MasterSpec document.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote

Anything about the Contractor having to protect the site? You may have to come to the aid of the Sub-Contractor, in a pinch... I've done that occasionally.

It has to be in the Project Specification... not the Masterspec...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
I can't imagine it would be worth the contractors time to go after the fabricator (unless they have not been paid yet.)

 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Look at 7.16 Storage and handling in the AISC Code of standard Practice (and commentary) If the notes or specs or contract general conditions s tie the contractor to the AISC specs or Code the that might be some leverage on them.

 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Depends on the scope of the remedy... every penny a contractor pays to his sub-trade comes directly out of his profit.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Thanks JAE... I'll take a gander.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
From the AISC Code of Standard Practice... my old copy was a decade old... Looks like a General Contractor problem...

Clipboard01_v03hrx.jpg


-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
At my last firm, one of the principals avoided using HSS elements because of a similar related problem. An HSS member had significant water inside of it, which froze and expanded causing damage to the structural element.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
That's not a really good reason... when I first started engineering, other engineers cautioned about using HSS sections for columns because they were too expensive. I pretty soon found out that beyond about 12', they were more economical... and have never looked back. They are not a panacea, but they do have a good purpose.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Perfect! That article gave me the spec section I was looking for. I knew there had to be a section on that somewhere.

Thanks!
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
"When water can collect inside HSS or box members, either during construction or during service, the member shall be sealed, provided with a drain hole at the base, or otherwise protected from water infiltration."

Still could be a finger pointing exercise between the GC and Fabricator
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

SteelTubes
  • Locked
  • Question
Software for design of concrete filled HSS columns
Replies
8
Views
201
JoshPlumSE
JoshPlumSE
reverbz
  • Question
HSS TO HSS KNEE CONNECTION WELDS 1
Replies
4
Views
713
Once20036
Once20036
EngDM
  • Locked
  • Question
Pre-engineered Columns for Compression
Replies
5
Views
181
EngDM
EngDM
LearningAlways
  • Locked
  • Question
FBC Fire Rating for Columns
Replies
5
Views
126
lexpatrie
lexpatrie
Eng_Struct
  • Locked
  • Question
Pile Cap Design For Helical Piles 1
Replies
6
Views
454
bones206
bones206

Part and Inventory Search

Sponsor

Back
Top Bottom