Need an alternative to Allen-Bradley IEC control relays 1

• Sep 19, 2003

• #2

buzzp

Electrical

Nov 21, 2001

2,032

Can not help you their. Allen-Bradley to me, means over priced reliable equipment. Their are others, depending on what, that are just as reliable but your not paying for the name. I am sure you know that. Will be nice to see if someone has a lead on the real mfg.

 

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• Sep 22, 2003

1
• #3

PUMPDESIGNER

Mechanical

Sep 30, 2001

582

Klockner Moeller was and is making some IEC stuff for AB, that I know for sure.
Also, Rockwell owns both AB and Sprecher Schuh, which is from Switzerland. They now share many components, in fact much of their stuff is identical. We just looked at moving onto AB and the Sprecher sales guy can sell me anything I want with Sprecher's name on it but identical to AB.

PUMPDESIGNER

 

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• Sep 22, 2003

• Thread starter
• #4

EEAutomEng

Electrical

Nov 7, 2002

41

Thanks PUMPDESIGNER. Sprecher Schuh relays are ,in deed, identicle to the AB units. I wonder how much less they cost....

 

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• Sep 22, 2003

• #5

afterhrs

Electrical

Mar 18, 2003

99

JM,
While you are shopping around for IEC components, I would take a serious look at Siemans . I have had great luck with them. I use the Siemans Sirius series.
Another very good rule of thumb for IEC I have found is you can only rate them at about 70% of maximum capacity if
sustain any product life out of them.
I have seen siemans maxed out on specifications and hold up very well

Regards,
afterhrs

 

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• Sep 22, 2003

• #6

PUMPDESIGNER

Mechanical

Sep 30, 2001

582

Sprecher is much less for two reasons.
Sprecher does not have the overhead AB does.
Sprecher has 2nd tier dealers that are hungry, low overhead guys often with far better service and inventory than the big distributors, at least our distributor is. Ask and we receive anything we want, even stocking inventory.

afterhrs - That is good insight about how IEC contactors are lighter duty.
We upsize the IEC stuff where it will be frequent starts, heavy torque starts, jogging, etc. However many applications are so light that we would be wasting money, the thing is going to last 20 years no matter what.

I'll keep my eyes open for the Siemens guys and give them a looksy.

PUMPDESIGNER

 

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• Sep 23, 2003

• #7

ScottyUK

Electrical

May 21, 2003

12,915

I agree with afterhrs regarding the high quality of Siemens controlgear. We started using their products after some pretty serious problems with products from Groupe Schneider companies (Merlin Gerin and Telemecanique), and have nothing but praise for the Siemens product.

Siemens have a very wide range of products, but the catalogues are not exactly friendly. The Siemens technical guys are very helpful though, when you become frustrated with the catalogues!

 

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• Sep 23, 2003

• Thread starter
• #8

EEAutomEng

Electrical

Nov 7, 2002

41

Thanks for the insight on the Siemens products. Unfortunately, I have no choice but to use AB or an equivelent to AB simply because our customers spec AB. For them, it's all in the name.

 

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• Sep 23, 2003

• #9

jOmega

Electrical

Oct 28, 2002

318

Buzzp :

Your comment reminded me of a time in the last millenium when I wandered the aisles at A-B .... there was an "un-official" company motto....

"You can always buy better, but you'll never pay more"

​

 

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• Sep 23, 2003

• #10

afterhrs

Electrical

Mar 18, 2003

99

Scotty
To me Telemecanique is like the Yugo ( a very cheap car that was sold in the U.S.,imported from old Yugoslavia) of industrial controls.
I remember a gentleman a few years back tried to spec a panel with a few of their components, the conversation ended something like this:

 

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• Sep 25, 2003

• Thread starter
• #11

EEAutomEng

Electrical

Nov 7, 2002

41

afterhrs,

Very true about Telemecanique!

 

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• Sep 25, 2003

• #12

ScottyUK

Electrical

May 21, 2003

12,915

I could not possibly put in print my current opinion of the new Telemecanique ranges. But you are on the right lines!

 

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• Sep 25, 2003

• #13

PUMPDESIGNER

Mechanical

Sep 30, 2001

582

OK, OK, I am out looking for Siemens. Thank you for the advice about Telemecanique.

PUMPDESIGNER

 

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• Sep 25, 2003

• #14

buzzp

Electrical

Nov 21, 2001

2,032

I used to work for a company that sold stuff to Group Schneider. They private labeld our stuff. I was not at all impressed with their technical expertise.
One note about IEC contactors; these units tend to generate higher transients when switching which might cause unprotected relays, controls, etc to nuisance trip or even lock-up. In any case, a properly designed control will not be affected by the IEC contactors.

 

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• Sep 26, 2003

• #15

PUMPDESIGNER

Mechanical

Sep 30, 2001

582

buzzp - Never knew about the higher transients. We grew over time to favor IEC contactors very much over NEMA because of the built in phase loss protection. Phase Monitors were a bain to our existence, more trouble than they were worth. We have repeatedly tested the single phasing abilities of the IEC contactors and they are very good at this.

PUMPDESIGNER

 

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• Sep 26, 2003

• #16

buzzp

Electrical

Nov 21, 2001

2,032

Like I said, if the control is designed properly, they will not be affected by the use of IEC contactors.
What levels of current unbalance do the IEC contactors consider a single phase, just curious?

 

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• Sep 26, 2003

• #17

PUMPDESIGNER

Mechanical

Sep 30, 2001

582

I valued your comment on the IEC higher transients. Who knows, that could cause a shorter life span of other delicate components in the panel.

I have never seen a chart or anything giving information on the degree of unbalance to cause single phase trip. All we know from literature is that three magnetic fields hold the trip bar straight. When a phase drops out the bar tilts and a very short delay occurs, generally around 2-5 seconds by our experience. I have even tested this in the shop, very reliable and very fast. The overload bimetallics are the cause of the trip, but their normal trip curve is modified by the bar tilting.

Sorry I do not have more information.



PUMPDESIGNER

 

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• Sep 27, 2003

• #18

skills

Electrical

Dec 6, 2002

187

I use probably 20 IEC Cutler-Hammer Freedom series IEC 947 a
month and I've not seen better contactors anywhere. If you want to look at these Cutler-Hammer contactors go to

http://www.automationdirect.com

and follow link to controls. I
also use a very inexpensive IEC contactor line for budget
jobs called Centsable which are about a 1/6 of the cost of
AB and work just as well. My electricians now replaced failed AB contactors with these in our systems. Centsable
are available at

http://www.automationdirect.com

as well.

 

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• Sep 27, 2003

• #19

skills

Electrical

Dec 6, 2002

187

As an example of Centsables' cost versus AB.
Centsable GH-15BN3-10A $12 AB 100-C09D10 $82
ABOVE EXAMPLE IS SIZE B 120V COIL WITH 1 N.O. AUX. CONTACT

If customer does spec. AB, they must be willing to
bear the cost however, so let em have em.

 

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• May 26, 2004

• Thread starter
• #20

EEAutomEng

Electrical

Nov 7, 2002

41

PumpDesigner-FYI, I have gone to different distributors when costing jobs and have found only a minimal difference in cost when comparing Sprecher-Shuh IEC relays to their A-B counterparts. What is your experience with this?

 

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