11DCV too much for automotive 12 volt starter 10

[frankiee]

I have heard that 12VDC auto starter batteries put in cars are designed to operate at 9 to 10 volts and that if a person puts too much battery in the car, the starter can go and not be covered under warranty. He said that the company said that cranking voltage of 11 volts was too high and his warranty was void. He then put the smaller recomended battery back in and he did not have any broken starters after that.
Is there any body that could confirm that starter motors are designed around 9 to 10 volts DC

Thanks

 

[DieselGrease]

I am considering applying 24 volts to a 12VDC system on my boat. The Perkins diesel is not turning over fast enough. WAROSS posted this earlier (part of a response):
"I have used 24 volts on 12 volt starters many times. There are a couple of tricks to get 24 volts to the starter without getting 24 volts to the rest of the electrical system."

Can anyone tell me how to keep the 24 volts from getting to the rest of the system as mentioned here? Thank you.

 

[waross]

I was refering to connecting jumper cables.
I your case, I suggest using a Series-Parallel switch. These were used for many decades to start diesel engines in large trucks. The system in normal operation uses two 12 volt batteries in parallel. All the electrics are 12 volts. The charging system is 12 volts. When it's time to start, the Series-parallel switch reconnects one battery in series with the other to supply 24 volts to the starter. All the 12 volt loads and the charging system remain permanently connected to one battery.
This is proven and mature technology.
If you to build it yourself, use a second battery with a solenoid on each side of it. One solenoid connects the second battery in series with the first and the second solenoid connects the resulting 24 volts to the starter.
Two smaller relays (Suitable for charging current and/or load current) may then be used to connect the batteries in parallel for battery charging. I would suggest using an oil pressure switch to control the paralleling relays so as to avoid draining the batteries when the engine is not running. Don't forget to interlock the relays with the starting solenoids.
The Series-Parallel switch is the much preferred solution.
Respectfully

 

[itsmoked]

Boy ... I have a bad feeling here.. Creating 12/24 mixed voltage systems brings a headache(if not several) onto your boat.

My question would be why is the 12V starter not working as it should? More likely you have a bad connection, bad battery, bad cables, bad starter solenoid, bad armature, or binding shaft. Going the 24V route may(after a bunch of money and battery locating hassles), make your starter seem real peppy right up until it quits... 20 miles offshore...

Starting systems draw truly huge amounts of current, (I have bored everyone here with my starter's 1,600A draw), the tiniest amount of resistance ANYWHERE in your starting circuit can cause a sluggish starter.

This isn't some pumped up 474 with a blower and an Arnesson direct drive is it?

Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.-

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[DieselGrease]

Actually WAROSS, I was also referring to the usage of jumper cables although I shall consider employing your method here at a later date. So, any direction you can give me towards doing this little maneuver with jumper cables? Left alone, I was considering using the jumper cables to make a jumper between the two batteries Positive and Negative terminals (series) to attain 24 volts. I am mostly concerned with ensuring I do not destroy other stuff in the process. I have a brand new starter which is doing the same as the old. It is having problems turning the engine over and maybe there is another problem that needs to be looked at. There is just not enough "umph" in the two battery bank. This was not always the problem and used to start up with the blip of the switch but now, the engine will turn but not fast enough and the positive connection on the starter gets very hot very fast which concerns me. The old starter was doing the same and even started smoking. I have a battery selector switch on the boat to employ #1, #2 or both batteries. Maybe my switch is only using one battery when it says it is using two? Bad switch? One battery weak? Bad ground? Sure appreciate your help as I am going back over to the boat tonight. I have GOT to get this thing started as hurrican season is upon me! Thank you!

 

[DieselGrease]

Hey Keith Cress: I did not see your posting relating to mine until I had replied a few minutes ago (please read). Anyway, yes I am concerned and want to do this right but needing to move my boat in a hurry, so was considering the 24 volts. The engine has started just fine in the past utilizing a two battery bank 12vdc system and since it has, I agree with you that there is another problem. Maybe I can find some answers on here.

 

[itsmoked]

What size engine?

What type of boat?

By "move" you mean to a pull-out ramp?

Raw water cooled?

Have you checked the oil for water?

Put a voltmeter on the battery terminals directly on the battery connections NOT on the cable terminals and then have someone hit the starter just long enough to get a good reading 2-3 seconds max.

What reading do you get?

Next place the voltmeter leads directly on the starter. Put one on a solid bare spot like the big field screws on the side. Place the other meter tip directly on the starter's actual power input bolt. Usually the one that the start solenoid outputs to the actual starter motor (talking GM style) (or on a Ford style, on the one big terminal). Again have someone turn the key until you get a good read. 2-3sec max.

If these two readings vary by more than 1V you probably have connection problems.

You can hunt the connection problem by setting your voltmeter down to a 2 volt setting (or there abouts) and then placing the probes across each and every wire connection.

Example: Place one probe on the battery terminal and one on the cable connector bolted to the that same battery terminal. You will come to some connection or the PERKO switch or something that will probably show most (90%) of the voltage difference between the original two readings. This would be the problem.

Possibilities: (not limited to)

Battery to terminals connections
Perko switch contacts (measured across switch terminals)
Cable swages (connector to cable)
Starter terminal to cable connections
Undersized cable/s (or secretly corroded to undersized)
Bad contacts inside starter solenoid
Bad engine ground cable/circuit

Let us know.
Good luck!



Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.-

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[DieselGrease]

Keith: This is a 1974 Irwin 32.5 CC Ketch rigged sailboat. Perkins 4-108 diesel (40 hp I think) and no glow plugs, fresh water cooled. What I mean by "move" the boat is that we are in hurricane season and I have to get this engine running ASAP to be prepared to move the boat elsewhere via the water ways as 13,000 pounds and 32.5 feet don't go on any trailer I have! I have checked for water in the drain oil and there is none. In fact there used to be a whole damn lot of it in there because water came up in the bilge and alomost covered the engine a few months back. I drained her, pulled the atomizers and filled the holes and the crankcase with diesel fuel. I then turned the engine over by hand and refilled again and let her sit a few days. Then I sucked all the water/oil from the crankcase and let her spin with the atomizers still removed. Long way of saying "there ain't no water in the oil anymore!". Any way, the problem of difficulty in turning the engine over existed before any of this ever happened but was not always that way. I will check all utilizing your tips and report back with my findings.

 

[itsmoked]

Nice craft the Irwin.

Hmmmm.. sea water into the starter... That may end up being the problem but I'll wait to hear the results of your measurements.

Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.-

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[rtronics]

"the positive connection to the starter gets real hot real fast"
This is the first problem to fix.
Take this cable off the starter and the other end (th battery), and check the crimp. You will have to either get a new cable, or remake the crimp, possibly by soldering. Not easy.
Regards, Ray

 

[itsmoked]

Excellent point rtronics!
I quickly jumped to my old days as a boat mechanic "recipe for a repair routine". I'd check the voltage across that connection first! Just so I knew.

Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.-

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[DieselGrease]

I went by the boat after work and inspected the battery cables leading to the battery selector switch. Number one battery is the one that has been showing less voltage on the LED bar readout so I checked its cable first. I did not even bother to put a volt meter on them at this point. While the terminal end itself and connection to the battery and switch are good and clean, the wire in the cables itself has the green stuff all in it and my experience tells me that at least on a boat, this could continue on up the cable for its entire length. I may cut off the cable a few inches back and see if it gets any better. If so I plan on soldering on new terminals. If not I plan on just replacing both the cables. The ground appears to be made fast although that cable may be suspect as far as corrosion goes as with the positive cables. More soon!

 

[waross]

You asked about 24 volts with jumpers.
This only works with systems with seperate solenoids, like old Ford pickups. The jumper battery has to be isolated, that is not sharing a common ground or other connection.
With a negative ground system the negative jumper cable is connected to the "Hot" terminal of the solenoid. Take a deep breath and put the positive junper on to the starter side of the solenoid. The starter will start to crank as soon as you make contact. Expect a lot of sparks. 24 volts will arc more than 12 volts and as a result do damage quite quickly if allowed to persist.
This works great with pickups. I would use it on a lobster boat or a shrimp boat with a nice roomy engine room. Most of the pleasure crafty I have seen tend to have very cramped engine rooms. This method may not be a good idea in cramped quarters. If you have starter mounted solenoids, this method will not work.
Hi Keith;
re; "Boy ... I have a bad feeling here.. Creating 12/24 mixed voltage systems brings a headache(if not several) onto your boat."
The series parallel system has one battery, the charging system and all of the electrical equipment permanently connected. 12 volt system. The only time that there is 24 volts present is when the starter is energised and only the starter sees 24 volts. As soon as the starter is de-energised, the second battery is reconnected in parallel with the other battery to share the 12 volt load and for charging. The system was almost universal for 40 or 50 years on over the road diesel trucks. Cat engines, Cummins engines, Detroit diesels, and probably a lot more.
You will not be able to use your One, Two or Both switch. You may provide battery disconnect safety with a seperate battery disconnect switch for each battery.
Good points about checking the electrical system everyone. Especially checking the starters for water damage. The starting problems I most often run into are poor or discharged batteries, and or worn out engines that have to be cranked a lot faster than when the engine was new.
respectfully

respectfully

 

[itsmoked]

If it's not his wiring or a corroded starter it may well be the engine. Most engines that have been flooded with saltwater have serious problems within about a year.

I had one customer who had a boat that had the same sounding sluggish turnover. I determined that it wasn't electrical. Might have been a 'weak' starter. I finally tried turning over the 327cu-in by hand and could not even begin to budge it. Then I stuck a wrench on the crankshaft. I could barely eek it along. Turned out it had lots of internal corrosion and bearing problems because the water cooled exhaust system(which uses raw water) had choked allowed water into the engine.

Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.-

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[LionelHutz]

I think fsmyth's answer about the ruggedness of the starter is the only thing that can have some bearing on this. I have seen lawnmower starters with nylon gears on them so sticking a big battery onto this starter could cause the gear to be damaged. Not likely it would damage the motor itself though.

Waross talking about the shunt regulators in some motorcycles could explain why not to boost them, especially with the boosting vehicle running.

Dad has a tractor that was converted to 12V and has been so since before I was born. It's not used every day but it's still got a lot of starts on it. The starter motor has survived just fine but it did need the gear replaced.

A starter motor being damaged by applying 1 more volt to it....no very likely.

 

[waross]

I agree with you itsmoked.
I think that DieselGrease has two problems.
One: What is causing the sluggish starting.
Two: How to get it going if it has to be moved out of the way of an approaching hurricane.
I think that both issues have been addressed.
respectfully

 

[ccjersey]

One joint to check that is frequently missed is the starter to engine connection which can be corroded and have a high resistance. The larger starters have a ground terminal with a separate cable, but most smaller ones like this Perkins won't have that.

 

[DieselGrease]

Thank you WARoss and CCJersey. Ok, I once more spent some time at the boat on the problem. I mentioned earlier that I had a battery switch (with L.E.D. bar type readout voltage indicator on panel) for a 2 battery bank arrangement. There are four positions on the switch which may be selected: Battery 1, Battery 2, Both or Off. I had been noticing that even after a full charge to both batteries, that battery #2 when selected would display good voltage on the readout, when BOTH selected the readout is the same as when just #2 is selected, but when selecting battery #1 the reading is very weak, and yet both batteries would show a full charge when load tested independently. I also checked the voltage with a meter at the back of the battery selector switch with the same results thinking perhaps a few of the tiny L.E.D. lights may have gone bad on the #1 side of the voltage indicator but the results were the same. I then disconnected the batteries and switched them around. Same results!!: Position #1=little or no reading, position #2=strong reading, position BOTH=same as #2 position reading. I guess it would be easy at this point to say that I have a bad battery selector switch but easy there, not so quick. I know I have two good batteries and the cables from the batteries to the switch are good and with good connections at both ends. I did notice when inspecting the battery cable leading from the selector switch to the starter that the connection at the starter should be re made as it appears corroded, but would this cause what I mentioned above with #1 reading weaker than #2 when both batteries are good? I am beginning to think that maybe even the connections at the back of the switch are wrong. The idea is to employ two batteries to assist in the starting of the motor. Here is how the wires are connected at the back of the switch: Position #2 goes to starter, postion BOTH goes to battery #2 and position #1 goes to battery #1. Dieselgrease weary now. Dieselgrease want to rest or burn boat down to water. Help.

 

[itsmoked]

Do not burn boat to water line while at dock.. Expenses can mount quickly..

Switch should be hooked up:

Both => starter
#2 => #2 battery
#1 => #1 battery

Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.-

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[DieselGrease]

Keith: Yes it makes more sense to me that the switch should be wired in as you said. I will try that, thank you. By the way, how long have you had your Irwin?

 

[itsmoked]

I wish! I had a sailboat.. The last one I had sat mostly in my driveway. It was an International Tempest. A rocket ship that needed a lot of work and was a hassle to launch and recover.

I stuck that Irwin picture in only for our fellow poster's edification.

Your present switch wiring explains a lot of your indicator problems.

Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.-

http://www.flaminsystems.com