16 Button mouse vs. Standard mouse

[SouthernDrafter]

I have read several different forums, and it has often been a topic within our own office- a lot of newbys would swear they are just as fast and proficient with a standard mouse than someone using a 16 button mouse and tablet. I just wanted to test some opinions about this.

I have been to a number of seminars with the advent of Acad 2002. While these instructors show and taut their new software as being "the ultimate", I watch them struggle with such simple and repetitive commands as "move", "rotate", "scale", etc.

It is my opinion, as a 16 button mouse user since version 12, that the single fastest, and overall best improvement in Acad continues to be the 16 button mouse. You can invent all the lisp routines you want to, but move for move, pressing your commands while your eyes never leave the drawing simply cannot be beat. Clicking on a tool bar, pull down, or screen menu still requires more effort than simply pressing a couple of buttons.

Those in our office who say a regular mouse is just as fast, has yet to prove it by drawing faster than me, or others who use the 16 button method. I should add that the ones who advocate the standard mouse are either much younger than me, came from using MicroStation, and in many cases, never even took a "drafting" course. Anyone remember those? Pencil on velum or ink on mylar? In which event, one had to know how to "draw", not just key in some info and "voila"! Drafting is fast becoming a lost art.
Many young people who are adept at computers think this can easily transfer to Acad. One still needs the "visualization" that was nurtured back in the older days with good old fashioned drawing.

Am I alone on this opinion? God, I feel old, and I'm only 37!

 

[Geomar]

Hi SouthernDrafter:
Sorry I don't mean to be had on you, but for a 37 year old your starting to sound more my age of 54. Yes any and all of the (Kids) young people coming out of school, know it all but don't have any idea how a drawing was made in the old days, it was and still is a fine art thats been lost with the computer but does not have to be so. Drawings where and can still be a personal piece of work that shows I made this drawing.
Iam getting long winded, put simply the pride of workmanship has been lost and or never learned.
Quote "Frustrated drafters in my office are letting "no-no's get by". Question, do you have any authority in the office, and if so, my response is have them fix the dam thing or find another job. History of Acad, small no-no's today are major screw ups down the road when you do a lot of cut and paste (import from old drawing files), they multiply over time in about the same way a mouse breeds.
Take care and stay calm it's not worth the ulser.

 

[borgunit]

Hi, ...interesting discussion. I would only add that there is no right or wrong in this. Each individual works differently. I have seen users with a mouse and quick keys fly while detailing, and I've seen the same for digitizer users. The main advantage for mouse use (2,3,4,5 button..) is that they user does not have to take their eyes away from the screen. With "Windows based AutoCAD" came the "virtual tablet" you might say. You could click on a icon and 8 new commands were presented to you (your tablet is rolled up on screen you might say). Some of the new 3D software even has "smart toolbars" which only show up when you need them. I can see where a multibutton "puck" would be nice, it would act like a mini-keyboard of sorts once you learn it. Digitizers are a matter of taste. I enjoyed the nicer feel of the drawing area with them, but aiming and picking commands become less cohesive to me once Windows AutoCAD came around. The neat thing about AutoCAD is that it accomodates all of these ways, so each person or business can find their "best" way. Thanks for starting the thread.

 

[SouthernDrafter]

Geomar-
no offense, but for a 37 year old, I feel like a 54 year old! Thanks for the replies, and I'll keep trying to stay calm.....it aint easy sometimes, but I reckon I get a little better at it with each day.

 

[SEMott]

I was one of the first to reply to your post and would also like to add why I'm more in favor of the standard mouse over a digitizer. When I first started out I used a 4-button puck for about 4 yrs. until it wore out and the company didn't want to replace it. Then I went to a mouse and was lost for a few weeks but been using it ever since. To expand a bit more, I'm a computer nut..... when I leave work in the evenings I go to college for programming, then when I get home I'm on the computer till 1:30 am every night. At school and at home I'm use 2-button mouse and it was difficult switch to a 4 (or more) button puck when I was spending the same amount of time away from work using a mouse and then to change to a puck at work was frustrating and slowed me down quite a bit. I'm now a mouse person for the 15 hrs a day I spend infront that monitor. It you think the 16 button puck it God's answer, more power to you.

Stephen E. Motichek
Project Consulting Services, Inc.

 

[SouthernDrafter]

God's answer to....tens of AutoCad commands at the fingertips of one hand, yes. But that's where it stops. While I make it an imperative part of my life to stay away from computers after work (8+ a day is plenty for anyone) I still have a home computer for surfing the net and making CD's and stuff. I use a mouse, a standard mouse with a wheel.

This topic regarding pucks pertains ONLY to AutoCad, not your everyday computer work, in which case, a tablet and puck would be nonsense.

 

[DraftsmanDave]

Once again I whole heartedly agree with Southern. I don't think a 12 button (or 16 for that matter) is at all helpfull in other programs. It just makes sense in a CAD inviornment when fractions of seconds can add up to hours of work, not to mention the frustration when you know of faster ways but can't implement them.

Think of how you move that curser across the screen to pick a button on a menu then back again to use the command (pick) on an object. I feel like I'm on a trapeze, swinging back and forth all day. Other tools while in a command helps tremendously too; turning on and off osnap, ortho, snap, canceling out of a command (esc key - use to be cntrl-c) or tabing through osnap handles. I use to have our most used commands; copy, move, line right at my fingertips.

If my left hand could be permantly affixed to the keyboard like my right hand is to my mouse, I may not have a problem with it. But even still you can't tell me you can use your left hand on the entire keyboard without taking your eyes off the screen. Maybe, if all of the keys on the keyboard that you use most often were centrally located so that your left hand could reach them without taking your eyes off the screen (hum, that kinda describes a multi-button puck) would you be as fast (possably faster) as you would be if you used a multi-button puck. Maybe that's what we all need is a small keypad that we could program the buttons to be what we like, where we like it and be used by either hand.... hummm... The only drawback to that would be that, once again, both hands are tied up. I'll still go for the 12 button optical mouse with the wheel, thank you.

By the way, to me, a 4 button puck doesn't fall into the catigory of multi-button. That's the way we started out using our tablets, with 4 button pucks. My current mouse has 4 buttons plus the wheel (not enough options and my fingertips for me). Its was only when we got the 12 button did we take notice of the effeincy.

I agree that the tablets are a pain, but the usefullness of 12 buttons on the puck can't be beat for CAD work (in my opinion).

Hey Microsoft... Bring on the Buttons!

 

[SouthernDrafter]

Yeah, 4 buttons wouldn't cover near as many possible commands as 16. It is also very good finger practice for me when I hit the club circuit on the weekends with the band. You can still get those from CalComp for about $250-$300.

 

[DraftsmanDave]

Naw.. Don't want the headache of the tablet or the space it takes up. Just want the 12 buttons....
Thanks anyway!

 

[Geomar]

I tried to tell you guy's before, I also used the 16 button puck for years....years and LOVED It. Customize your PGP file, you get 21 commands not 16 with the left hand on the keyboard plus four on the intell. optical wheel mouse plus transparent pan and zoom.
Know please tell me how a 16 button puck is better?????
The problem is you die hards don't want to change.
Sorry, not meant to offend anyone.

 

[SouthernDrafter]

Geomar- READ the previous posts, I have already customized my .pgp file. And if you used a 16 button puck and only got 16 commands from it, something is amiss. The osnaps and commands come from (2) button combos. This permutates into many, many more commands than the 26 letters on your keyboard and includes ALL osnaps. I work in a sharply divided office of approx. 70:30 in favor of the 16. I am perfectly capable of change, and I welcome it IF....IF it has a clear advantage over my current method. That is not the case. You have your opinions, as well as anyone else on this thread. However, the final statement of your post was inflammatory to myself and others who feel the way I do.

Like I said, 70:30, in favor of the puck. If this raises your dander, then just ignore this thread. There's no need to get snippy with those of us who draw faster with our pucks (not to mention, using more commands than 16).

Perhaps you could explain how you can do all your commands, osnaps, block insertions (that's PARTICULAR SPECIFIED blocks on command), set variables and control virtually every aspect of AutoCad from your keyboard. Do the math-
You have 1 pick and 1 enter button, so excluding those for command permutations, that leaves 14, which is 196 possible commands, snaps, variables, you name it.

Incidentally, I do know some folks who have spent YEARS....years and never fully exploited the full potential of 200 commands all in the palm of one hand, including the all versatile CURSOR. If refusing to diminish my options makes me a dinosaur, then so be it. Excuse me, a "Die hard".

Sorry if I came off like a jerk this time, but that's not the first reply you have been less than friendly about.
IMHO, one fo the biggest reasons the puck got lost in the fray was the shear dedication it took to master one. Let's face it, one of the biggest drawbacks from computers is the unspoken issue of making it possible for someone to draw, who knows nothing about drawing in the first place. I see it with EIT's as well. There are a lot folks out there who think computers enable them to do anything, whether they have actually mastered that skill or not. Meanwhile, I will continue to diligently redline and fix their mistakes and stress the importance of using one's head instead of assuming the computer is all powerful and all knowing. It's still only as smart as its user.

 

[Geomar]

The size of 12 x 12 digitizer had more to do with me not using the 16 button puck, takes up to much space.
The combination of 21 keys, shift+key, ctrl+key and the use of double keys if you really what to get carried away, is 63 commands with one hand excluding the double keys.

One die hard dinosaur to another seeing you admit being one, snippy was not intended either although I do have a way of comming across that way sometimes.

This string is a opinion of personal pref. every one has his or her own the way it should be.

Good bye

 

[SouthernDrafter]

I sometimes come across the same way myself. No offense intended, and thanks for your contributions to the thread.

 

[Geomar]

Excuse me, one more thing...

I didn't say I did every thing to control virtually every aspect of AutoCad from the keyboard. However most of the basic drawing commands are the rest come from the toolbars.

Setvars, dimstyles, layers, txstyles, plot styles, osnaps - - - - and on are all common between drawings, they are setup in a standard border drawing with attributes for the title block.

Because I use over 600 standard blocks, steel shapes, sprockets, cylinders, motors - - - mech. components, I elected to use the pull down menu with branches (flyouts) for the different types of items. Found it a lot easier than trying to remember the file names.

Statement, the speed that one works at is dependent on thier personal work habits, the knowlege they have in Acad and the end product they are trying to draw. The rest is only a tool, the better your tools the easier your work. The only tool that involves speed of work is the CPU, if you trying to work with a boat anchor its upgrade time.

Good bye, stay calm

 

[SouthernDrafter]

Agreed- 600 blocks is a bunch of blocks! .....

 

[Geomar]

SouthernDrafter:
Give me your email address I'll send you menu for block management.

 

[SouthernDrafter]

Geomar-that sounds great. Thanks. Put SouthernDraftsman in the topic somehwere, so I don't accidentally delete it.

Glenny_2u@yahoo.com

 

[cadkid]

It's been some time since I last visited this forum. This is one topic that I just had to chime in on. I've been drawing with acad since r10. I have always used a mouse. back when I started the puck and tablet were definiatley faster than I was. One of my best friends always gave me a hard time about not using the tablet. I guess at the time I was intemmidated. I also didn't want to give up the realestate on my desk. I now use a Logitech thumb scroll that has two buttons and a wheel. I'm not the fastest, but I am fast. Modifying my .pgp file, custom lisp commands and custom toolbars, allom to compete with almost anyone for speed. I also keep my running osnap on, so the osnap menu is not a problem for me. Like several others have commented on, use what ever works best for you. My friend is still using a 16 button puck. Oh, one other thing that
turned me off against the tablet and puck, was that I had a bad habit of tossing my floppies next to the puck. Not a good thing.

 

[sslavik]

I couldn't resist adding my thoughts. As a CAD manager I've seen lots of people work lots of ways. About the only definitive trend I've seen is that no two people work the same way. For me, 16 buttons is fastest, hands down. Yes, I had to learn it, but there's no faster way for me. Like SouthernDrafter I don't pick off the tablet, too slow. I gave my best effort to an Intellimouse at one time, and the zoom/pan on the wheel was terrific, but alas I just couldn't work fast enough with it. I have seen others work amazingly fast with a mouse, but the "full time two-handed" approach just isn't for me. To each his own I suppose. Oh, there is one other trend: puck users seem to be much more passionate about the issue, I suppose cuz we're in the minority.

 

[Striker]

Ok SouthernDrafter... this one's of you!

HOORAY FOR 16 BUTTON PUCKS!!!

I LOVE MY PUCK AND ALL 16 OF ITS TEENY TINY LITTLE BUTTONS!!!

Like sslavik I just couldn't pass the urge to comment on this topic. SouthernDrafter, like you, I began using AutoCAD when you had almost no choice but use the 16 button puck way back in the R10 era. I had watched those with experience use the 16 button cursor like it was some kind of toy, making it do things that I thought were impossible. I never imagined I could ever remember what might exist on 14 user defined buttons nevermind the possibilities of multiple button menus. After my initial indocrination into "digitizer land" I was extremely uncomfortable with the multi-button environment. Indeed I was highly intimidated. It has been some 12 years (geez it don't seem like that long) and before I left my last job I was perhaps the fastest of 15 drafters simply because I had developed and customized my puck to have 8 button menus, each had only 12 items because I used 2 buttons exclusively to toggle between button menus. I NEVER EVER touched the keyboard except to type something in an edit box or to further develop my menus. Of course 0 and 3 were pick and enter (Calcomp DBIII) and 1 & 2 were "top menu" and "next menu" (on my Numonics it was 0 & 1 and 2 & B) anyway to make this shorter. I had my top 96 commands on my mouse and never had to look at it or the keyboard. I want to move an object then I press 4,0,0,3,0,0 Sure it seems like alot of buttons presses, I could press that faster than anyone could press M and enter then select the objects and move them. Essentially the strokes were the same but the movement was reduced. If I needed to trim multiple items, it was 2,2,4,0,0,0,3,0,0. Well enough nostalgia....

A co-worker and I have now moved to a company where the 20 somethings have scorned us from day 1 for bringing our digitizers into the office. The office manager said that they were cumbersome and slow. Well, we initially did not have the button menu customized and have slowly began to customize the digitizers and button menus to meet our needs. Of course never having used a mouse (geez... I need those buttons) I was sloooow

http://www getting

started. However... the two of us with digitizers and 16 button pucks have done something that no one ever does... We use BOTH the mouse in the left hand for zooming and panning (I must admit it is great) and the right hand on the puck for commands. It takes getting used to.. but can you imagine the look on the boss' face when he walked in and saw us using BOTH concurrently. He nearly flipped out. I must admit though, we only did it because they said it was slower. I wonder if they think that now after 6 months we (my partner and I) are producing twice the amount of work as the other 3 draftman put together in the previous year!

I know it sounds farfetched, but I LOVE MY 16 BUTTON PUCK and I will carry it to the grave with me!

So... Come on Microsoft... develop me a cordless optical 16 button mouse with the scroll button, and I will buy at least 3 of em.....

HOORAY FOR 16 BUTTON PUCKS !!!!!!

 

[SouthernDrafter]

Great reply, Striker! I think I had mentioned earlier that my acad.mnu has undergone extensive customization over the years, but for the most part, the BUTTONS menu portion has remained relatively unchanged. If I went to another company I would definitely bring my menus with me.

I couldn't help but notice how many clicks you mentioned for, say, the move command. Mine is like 7,4= move, 7,5= copy, and so on. Each command is no longer than 2 clicks. There are 3 or 4 toggle numbers, though most of us rarely need more than 2. I am summarizing, but it's like the first menu (single button only) is the draw things, second menu (all following menus are, of course 2 click) is osnaps, third is modify/edit, and the next couple are combos of block insertions and what have you. If you moved something using osnaps, I guess that would account for the amount of buttons (4) you'd click, instead of (2). But, like you well know, it all happens so quickly, you'll miss it if you're watching and trying to learn.

And next- "cumbersome"....I suppose I'd say that when talking about one of those huge digitizers (larger than 12"x12&quot My 12" tablet fits nicely next to my monitor, always has, and takes only a few inches more space than my standard mouse needs to navigate (unless I pick the mouse up over and over in limited space area).

In any event, I have a relatively new tablet and puck on my home system also, use the same menus I helped write for my company, and though it seems routine to me, you can see the jaws drop from clients, friends, even family. I do a little work for whoever needs it, generally.

Thanks for the input, Striker, and good luck in your newer job. You guys show 'em how it's done!