2013 Edition NFPA #13 R and elevator shafts and a little on elevators in NFPA #13

[SprinklerDesigner2]

We are all aware of this

6.6.6* Sprinklers shall not be required in attics, penthouse equipment rooms, elevator machine rooms, concealed spaces dedicated exclusively to and containing only dwelling unit ventilation equipment, crawl spaces, floor/ceiling spaces, noncombustible elevator shafts where the elevator cars comply with ANSI A17.1, Safety Code for Elevators and Escalators, and other concealed spaces that are not used or intended for living purposes or storage and do not contain fuel-fired equipment.

My question has to do with the IBC and ANSI A17.1 whch I do not have a copy of.

Building is a newly built four story motel that the building professional of record has called for a NFPA #13R system.

From what I have researched is it even possible to construct an elevator shaft with cars that are not ANSI A17.1 compliant? Maybe I am all wrong and wet but I find it very hard to believe it would even be possible and stay IBC compliance.

If the shaft and cars are ANSI A17.1 compliant does it even matter if hydraulic fluids are used?

The way I read it is if the shaft and car is compliant with ANSI A17.1 then sprinklers are never required at the bottom of the shaft.

Am I correct?

The next issue has to do with elevators per NFPA #13

8.15.5.2 The sprinkler required at the bottom of the elevator hoistway by 8.15.5.1 shall not be required for enclosed, noncombustible elevator shafts that do not contain combustible hydraulic fluids.

The key words are "combustible hydraulic fluids".

I heard that some elevator companies are moving to non-combustible hydraulic fluids and I am wondering if this is rare, prevalent or becoming more prevalent?

How many hydraulic elevators are using non-combustible fluids?

Anyone have much experience with such issues?

 

[cdafd]

Free access to ibc 2009 to 2015

Just like every door does not have a
Rating label, every elevator may not meet whatever

 

[cdafd]

All the shafts have to be is non combustible and built to ibc not ansi


2009 chapter 30

http://codes.iccsafe.org/app/book/c...hapter 30-Elevators and Conveying Systems.pdf

Shaft shall meet 708

http://codes.iccsafe.org/app/book/c...pter 7-Fire and Smoke Protection Features.pdf

 

[stookeyfpe]

The only real way to verify if a hydraulic fluid is noncombustible is to review the Safety Data Sheet from the oil manufacturer. However, the way I read NFPA 13R, the combustibility of the fluid doesn't come into play versus NFPA 13, where liquid flammability is a regulated issue.

I will also say that A17.1 (which I do have in my office) defers to the jurisdiction's adopted building code for the construction of the elevator shaft. In the IBC, combustible construction is allowed and done everyday - however, shafts less than 4 stories in height require a 1-hour fire-resistance ratings and shafts 4 or more stories in height require a 2 hour rating. This is easily accomplished with gypsum wallboard.

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

Stookey,

Allow me to ask some silly questions.

As to NFPA #13R would I be correct in thinking if a newly constructed elevator shaft meets the requirements of the IBC sprinklers sprinklers would never be required at the top or bottom of the elevator shaft?

Or, under NFPA #13R, is it possible to build a new elevator shaft under the IBC that would be considered combustible which would require sprinklers at both top and bottom?

As to NFPA #13R if an elevator shaft does not meet the requirements of the IBC am I correct in thinking the shaft will always require sprinklers at both the top and bottom of the shaft?

Can you come up with a scenario where sprinklers would be required in a newly constructed NFPA #13R building under the IBC?

Side note: I am a layout technician and what I really want to know is what questions I should ask of the building design professional in order to determine if sprinklers are required or not because that decision is not mine to make.

 

[cdafd]

Your first questions should be

1. Which edition of ibc is used for this project

2. Which edition of IRC is used for this project

3. Which edition of NFPA 13 or 13R is used for this project

4. Any local admendments to any of these.


The requirements change a little depending on the above answers

 

[stookeyfpe]

Stookey,

Allow me to ask some silly questions.

1) As to NFPA #13R would I be correct in thinking if a newly constructed elevator shaft meets the requirements of the IBC sprinklers sprinklers would never be required at the top or bottom of the elevator shaft?

2) Or, under NFPA #13R, is it possible to build a new elevator shaft under the IBC that would be considered combustible which would require sprinklers at both top and bottom?

3) As to NFPA #13R if an elevator shaft does not meet the requirements of the IBC am I correct in thinking the shaft will always require sprinklers at both the top and bottom of the shaft?

4) Can you come up with a scenario where sprinklers would be required in a newly constructed NFPA #13R building under the IBC?

Side note: I am a layout technician and what I really want to know is what questions I should ask of the building design professional in order to determine if sprinklers are required or not because that decision is not mine to make.

You'll never be penalized in my world for asking questions that are clear. For ease of answering I numbered your questions

1) No. Consider a building of IBC Type V or III construction using open wood trusses or TJI trusses. The shaft wall could be constructed using cast in place concrete, CMU block or gypsum wallboard panels to the roof deck but the shaft remains open to the trusses because the elevator is without a machine room. In this case, depending on the shaft area, sprinklers could be required, but you could solve the problems using one of 19 options for combustible concealed construction.

2) It would be uncommon for the regional construction practices in my time zone since the elevator pit is usually part of the foundation design and use essentially conventional concrete designs in Type III and V construction. So for me, no, because the shaft wall materials would prevent the designation of the area as combustible construction.

3) Most likely yes for Type III & V construction. For Type I or II construction my answer is no as the building is already noncombustible.

4) My answer is limited to elevator shafts, not for the building. See my answer to Question 1.