250 MPG car 2

[BigWallyB]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,165650,00.html

Goes along with some other recent threads. Not sure I understand the hold up in mass production of these types of vehicles? What they say about daily mileage is quite true, at least for my family. Honda made some all elec. two seaters available in California some time back. Then they went away. Probably because they were only good for 60-70 miles b4 recharge. I would love to get involved in a pilot program to jump-start the "plug-in hybrid" program. Even at the increased cost that the Hondas had (~$30,000 plus batteries every couple of years). I'd even make room in my garage for the car and charger! Any info from the auto professionals out there? These seem to be the best of both worlds for those of us who regularly drive with only 1 or 2 people in the vehicle.

Life is what happens while we're making other plans.

Wally

 

[GregLocock]

Well, there's 250 mpg and then there's 250 mpg. By that definition an electric car gets >100000 mpg.

However, the basic idea of a reasonably sized battery pack, and a smaal engine to assist and recharge it, makes a great deal of sense....

If gas is >200 per barrel.

Any less than that you do the maths on the payback time.







Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[crysta1c1ear]

He's part of a small but growing movement. "Plug-in" hybrids aren't yet cost-efficient, but some of the dozen known experimental models have gotten up to 250 mpg.
...
The extra batteries let Gremban drive for 20 miles with a 50-50 mix of gas and electricity. Even after the car runs out of power from the batteries and switches to the standard hybrid mode, it gets the typical Prius fuel efficiency of around 45 mpg. As long as Gremban doesn't drive too far in a day, he says, he gets 80 mpg.

They have stuck a 250 MPG headline on an article about a guy that can get 80MPG, as long as he doesn't drive too far in a day. As Greg said, that means providing he is discharging his batteries, ie he is running on electricity instead.

However, he could have bought a VW Lupo 3L TDI and driven round the world in 80 days getting about 100 miles per gallon from a standard production vehicle.

http://www.lupo80days.com/route_en.html

If you want an experimental hybrid that will do 250 miles per gallon, you'd just need to take a 285 miles per gallon VW cigar car and weigh it down with a few batteries.

http://car-reviews.automobile.com/album.jsp?id=637&page=1

 

[dcasto]

The article continues that it only costs $.25 to recharge the batteries...... right.

The article did make ammends in stating that the electricityto charge the car batties, comes from a power plant that makes CO2. However, a coal fired power plant will make more CO2 per kilowatt than any other hydrocarbon based fuel, including a gasoline based car engine.

 

[rmw]

The power companies are going to be the key to success (or not) of that concept, as I see it.

They have the need to keep the load up in off peak hours late at night, not in the early evening when John Doe arrives home from his evening commute and plugs in his car; so until they (a) come up with a meter/charging system that can charge the car when they want to (multiplexing?), and (b) give a price break for selling power in the wee hours of the night, this thing won't fly. But, if they buy in and get on board, and make it do-able, I can see it having more chance of happening.

On the other side of the coin, a power company engineer recently remarked about his employer that the company had just completed 57 years of service unimpeded by progress. So I don't look for them to be on the cutting edge on this, unfortunately.

Speaking of coal burners, irrespective of the debate about the CO2/kwh of various fuels, any fossil fueled power generator is more efficient at higher loads than at low loads, so the specific CO2/kwh is lower when the units can maintain their load, something very difficult to do with today's demand curves, when they struggle to just keep units tied the line through the night (partially because those with nucs are running them full throttle 24/7).

And then, irrespective of any arguements about storing the nuclear waste produced, (which to my way of thinking is a problem that engineers will have to solve, not politicians-job security for engineers) if the electricity that is used to recharge cars is produced by nuclear power, then the overall CO2 reduction could be significant.

I think it is a worthwhile discussion topic BigWallyB.

rmw

 

[GregLocock]

rmw, " any fossil fueled power generator is more efficient at higher loads than at low loads, so the specific CO2/kwh is lower when the units can maintain their load, "

Excellent point. The marginal efficiency , ie extra energy out per extra energy in, is a very useful concept in IC engine development as well.

The Prius engine is 37% efficient at its optimum, and is above 30% at all times on its preferred operating curve. It has the luxury of operating on this curve because the transmission acts as a CVT, and at very low loads the electric motor runs the whole show, so the engine is never idling as such, it is either off, or recharging the battery at quite a high rate, when stationary.







Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[Warpspeed]

Bicycle ? small engined motorcycle ? Not high tech, but probably more doable for most people as a practical alternate mode of transport some of the time.

 

[GregLocock]

Yeah, but it never happens. When I use my bike or walk it is to get fit or for convenience, not to save fuel.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[Warpspeed]

Pedal power may become an economic necessity for a great many people after the coming world financial crash.

As engineers we all want to see a low cost high tech innovative solution, but is that realistic ?

 

[GregLocock]

A 30 mph 30 mile range solution is easy. Pick from pushbike up through various electric cars.

The killer, literally, is other traffic.



Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[BigWallyB]

But Greg, these cars are perfect for traffic! They shut off during short stops, can use elec motor for creeping etc. I guess it is a statement to our "instant gratification" society. I have driven a scooter to work (200cc Honda Rebel) but even thats only 75mpg, and it sucks in the rain and with passenger(s) or packages. I'm not an enviro kook, I just find it a reasonable alternative (need). Ok, maybe not if u have to run the ac during all that tim. Guess they decided they just can't make a killing so they're not going to put up the capital.

"However, a coal fired power plant will make more CO2 per kilowatt than any other hydrocarbon based fuel, including a gasoline based car engine." Is that true? What about the other pollutants? And even so, CO2 is plant food!! We can grow bigger better trees? Its not ozone yada yada. What about all the other power plants? I know this is a lot deeper than we can touch on and I fully realize that everything in life comes down to cost but you know it is hard not to believe the conspiracy theorists when what is happening happens. ?? Hmmm. Maybe thats not put best....


Life is what happens while we're making other plans.

Wally

 

[patprimmer]

Wally, Gregs reference to killing was literally. People using very light modes of transportation in heavy traffic results in much higher risk to life and limb.

Regards

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[BigWallyB]

Oh, tanks a lot

Life is what happens while we're making other plans.

Wally

 

[Snork]

The power companies already have the ability to control the loads and turn your outlets on and off at will. We, here in the great wild north, have Off Peak load control power. Basically, the price of electricity, to the COOP, varies over the course of the day based on the demand. When the price gets too high they simply turn off some of your power to lower the demand so the COOP doesn't have to pay the higher price - since the customer pays a set amount. We have four seperate circuits in our house; one for the forced air heat pump, one for the under-floor heat pump, one for the domestic hot water, and one for the lights. They can't turn off our lights, but we pay more for that power than for the other ones that they can turn off.

The parking lot at work has this same setup. We have poles throughout with outlets for engine block warmers. When the system load is too high, say when the temperature drops to 40 below (air temp, not wind chill) they turn the power off. Seems a little counter productive, but most of the time you get some heat to help start the engine. We simply have auto start - every little bit the engine starts and runs until it's up to temperature, then turns itself off.

On the subject of Hybrid's -- some folks up here who have them have had trouble in the cold; seems if it's too cold the battery doesn't have enough juice to start up the on board computer, and the car simply won't run. Seems like a hitch in the program.

 

[Warpspeed]

That raises some fascinating issues of running hybrids in very cold climates, battery capacity reduction, and how the heck can you provide sufficient heating/demisting with heat from a flea power gasoline engine ?

 

[GregLocock]

Yes, heating and cooling are significant issues for economical vehicles. Trying to emulate a one size fits all approach is silly, just use pareto to decide on the best bang per buck.

It may be that society has to accept bigger fuel bills in cold climates. Amazing.



Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[BigWallyB]

There is not quite enough entropy in those systems?

"S - For a closed thermodynamic system, a quantitative measure of the amount of thermal energy not available to do work."


Life is what happens while we're making other plans.

Wally

 

[crysta1c1ear]

I took a look at the website for the guys with the do-it-yourself plug-in hybrids. I think the guys are sensible people with coherent arguments, and they have been misrepresented by the press that loves headlines. It is the press that claims 80 MPG or whatever. The guys (California Cars or whatever they were called) acknowlege that they are running much of the time as en electric vehicle; indeed that is their aim, and pictures of the EV button on the 'European Version' of the Prius highlights the fact they are thinking ELECTRIC VEHICLE, with a small engine to run as a normal hybrid over longer distances than battery only operation would allow.

For a very few people, that would make envirnmental sense. Those people are the ones with access to green electricity, eg a guy with an old watermill by the river past his house running a generator and recharging the vehicle when not in use. Clearly most people don't have green electricity. It might also make economic sense to people with dirt cheap electricity and expensive liquid fuels.

The thrust of their argument is environmental - liberation from oil, and they note the use of OFFPEAK electricity. The batteries effectively provide a storage of the electricity for late use.

Looking at things from a global planning point of view, balancing loads on electricity networks is maybe better done by using a timer to start dishwashers and washing machines, heating water in a well agged boiler overnight and using it during the day etc. If there is a need to store offpeak electricity in batteries for later use, it is far more sensible to have the batteries fixed in the house and burn liquid fuel for a vehicle, than to carry the batteries around. So while they have the best of intentions, what they are proposing is not the most efficient way forward.

Basically, electric only vehicle operation only makes environmental sense where green electricity is available, and economic sense where the electricity is low cost. It is good that people are doing the research and proving the concepts and for some eco-warriors the idea would actually work, but for Joe Public, clean electicity needs to come first and so the plug-in hybrid guys are sort of way ahead of their time.

When their time does come, and there is an excess of commonly available green electricity, in excess of what is required for more deserving cases - like households - they will still be up against green fuels like vegoil, bio-ethanol etc.

If a carmaker sold plug in hybrids with a wind turbine for your roof, big enough to power the house and have enough left over for the car, fine, otherwise forget it. Clearly this is technology worth looking at, but its going to remain odd-ball and not mainstream for a long long time.

Honda make gas (as in gaseous) powered cars and due to refuelling problems, also sell a compressor so that people can refuel their cars from the mains gas in their houses.
So my remarks about the car maker selling the turbine to recharge it are only 99% jest. There is a 1% of prediction in what I'm saying.

I think ultimately many people will buy vehicles and buy a refuelling mechanism to match it. Kits are available on the internet to make vegetable oil from vegetables, with combustion in mind. We can see the trend in operation on these fora [forums] with people doing biogas conversions due to having a source of biogas, or people in the country doing vegoil conversions.

As oil supplies drop below demand, alternative sources are required. The oil companies cannot pretend hydrogen is a one size fits all pullover, and diversity is the key. This forum is scattered with fringe ideas that will take niche shares of a future car market.

Plug-in hybrids is going to be one of those niches. Prius and Ford Escape plug-in recharge conversion kits will appear on the aftermarket and some time or other an OEM might advertise their green credentials by selling a plug-in hybrid car. But clean electricity for cars while household electricity is still dirty, ain't going to happen big-time and any push in that direction is misguided.

 

[tbuelna]

Excellent post crysta1c1ear.

Here's the exhaust pipe of their electric car:

Regards,
Terry

 

[BigWallyB]

Ok. Got it stwaight from the wabbit. One point to pound tho. Some elec. pwr is very, very clean eco-friendly power. There are over 2000 hydro providers in the US thus hydro provides 10% of US power needs. "coal-fired plants account for 51% of generation, nuclear 21%, natural gas 14%, hydroelectricity 10%, oil 3%, geothermal and "other" 1%." I will admit auto engineering has come a long way but I would think the economies of scale would make even coal-fired electricity better than small ic engines. Probably depends on what your measuring.

Toyota on Plug-In Hybrids
17 August 2005
Via calcars-news comes an email from the Group Vice President of Corporate Communications, Toyota Motor sales, in a response to the Yahoo Gridable Hybrids group.

The Toyota stance boils down to two points: (a) an electric vehicle isn’t cleaner than a gasoline vehicle on the national grid and (b) batteries require significant further development. The text of the email follows.

Thank you for your communication regarding plug-in hybrids. Like you, we at Toyota are very interested in this technology. It is something we are studying for the future as one avenue to adding diversity to the transportation energy mix. Plug-in hybrids can further reduce petroleum consumption, improve fuel economy, possibly ease our dependence on foreign oil and potentially lower greenhouse gas emissions.

That said, we also recognize that there are limitations to plug-in hybrids. As you well know, the true environmental impact of a plug-in depends on the source of the electrical charge. Coal-burning power plants do not lessen the greenhouse gas production and criteria pollutants increase. Secondly, to create a vehicle that meets consumers’ needs, a breakthrough in battery technology in regard to capacity, durability and cost, is necessary. Outside experts predict this isn’t likely to happen this decade.

In the meantime, we are strongly committed to our hybrid technology which offers a great balance of reduced petroleum consumption, improved fuel economy, cleanest criteria pollutants and driving pleasure at a price people can afford. We have such confidence in hybrids’ durability and reliability that Toyota is looking to increase the number of gas-electric hybrids on the road. We have 10 hybrids under development globally now and by early next decade it's conceivable that 25 percent of the vehicles we sell here in the United States will have hybrid powertrains.

Hybrid technology, like the Hybrid Synergy Drive system in our Prius, is taking on a new role in car culture. While hot rodders used to soup up their engines and pour on the chrome, they’re now tinkering with computers to maximize their fuel mileage. It’s a whole new passion for auto enthusiasts.


Life is what happens while we're making other plans.

Wally