'62 Ford 221 valve lifter question.

[RonBP]

Hi all,
First post here and have a question about this old ford V8. It's a reverse rotation 221 Ford Eaton Interceptor in a Chris Craft that I rebuilt several years ago and it hasn't run right since! Well, actually, it has been parked for almost the whole time due to in-laws health issues (it's their boat) and I just hauled it home to figure out what's wrong.

Basically, it runs like it has a real bad vacuum leak: won't idle for squat, stalls when you try to accelerate, and the vacuum reading is down at like 8. I finally found a reprint of the owners manual and it says this engine came with either mechanical OR hydraulic lifters. I know I put hydraulic lifters in it when I rebuilt it (and stupid me, didn't verify what was in the thing) but according to the engine ID number I now know it should have had mechanical lifters. Would the wrong lifters have a big effect like I am experiencing?

Background: Engine rebuilt because a couple piston got burned due to (I suspect) being run on old gas. Replaced several pistons, rings, rod and main bearings, timing chain and gears,and had the heads reworked.

Any input appreciated.

Ron

 

[SMOKEY44211]

Ron. Yes you can run hydraulic lifters on a solid lifter cam if you adjust the clearance to the specs for the solid style lifter. It takes a little bit of feel so you don't depress the plunger in the lifter. I would suggest you backoff all the rocker arms so there is some clearance, run the engine for about a minute to allow the oil pressure to pump the lifter internals to full extension. Adjust the clearance with the engine not running by turning the engine over in the direction of running rotation either with a bar and socket on the crank or kicking the starter momentarily. Adjust the intakes as its companion exhaust just starts to open and do the exhaust as the intake closes.------Phil

 

[RonBP]

Thanks Phil,
I had not thought of leaving the hydraulic lifters in there, it's an interesting idea. But, I will do as you suggested at least to see if it improves how it runs. Thanks for the input.
Ron

 

[patprimmer]

The symptoms you list might also be the result of corroded leaky valve seats, or sticky valves, maybe due to corrosion of the stems or guides.

These can be problems with rarely used boat engines.

Regards

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[vintageAP]

Yes, barring some gross vacuum leak this is definitely an issue with the valve train. Upgrading to hydraulic lifters in itself will not cause this situation and is a good choice. I'd keep the hydraulics but there are several other things going on here that could be causing this type of problem.

First is the valve adjustment. A 62 221 solid lifter block has the same oil feed as a hydraulic lifter block so there is no issue there. It also has adjustable rocker arms so you can get yourself out of this fairly easy. Each lifter needs to be on the base circle of the cam when the rocker is adjusted. Pull the spark plugs. Back off the rocker nut to where you have just a little bit of clearance and bring it down to 0 lash, then give it about 1/2 of a turn and you will be in the ballpark for pre-load on the lifter. It's best to find the center of the base circle by bringing the engine around where that rocker is up and putting a breaker bar on the crank, and moving it one way until the rocker moves, and then the other way until the rocker moves, and split the difference. You can also do the valve adjustment dynamically while the engine is running by backing off the adjustment until it "clicks" and bringing it down 1/4 - 1/2 turn, but it makes a hell of an oil mess, and in a boat it would be a total PITA.

A few other things to think about; You never should install new (or different) lifters without changing the cam. A cam lobe and lifter wear in together from new and after initial start-up are a matched pair. New lifters on an old cam will waste the cam in short order. The same goes for swapping used lifters hole for hole.

Being a reverse rotation engine may bring you abnormal issues with a stock replacement timing chain and gear set. Some gear sets have built-in advance or retard and this will be reversed in a reverse rotation engine (2deg advance will be 2deg retard etc.). I would make sure that the gear set is set up at TDC 0deg. Any good aftermarket set should be cut this way when set at 0deg..

All SBF windsor cams will interchange physically so even though it's a 62 221 a 69 351W reverse rotation cam will slide right in. Of course you need the correct specs but any cam company that does marine cuts can provide parts for you. Not as obscure as it sounds - a good thing.

If you need specific help feel free to PM or e-mail me. Vintage Fords, and especially Vintage Ford engines are my thing. cosa@teleport.com

 

[RonBP]

Patprimmer-yes, thanks, I plan on going over everything in the valvetrain to make sure things are moving correctly.

Vintage-You brought up a good point about the cam gear set that I also asked the "parts guy" when I ordered the stuff for the engine and he assured me the gears are stock, normal rotation items. But, then again he got me the hydraulic lifters and said it's no problem replacing just the lifters!

I know I can borrow a friends degree wheel but I have never been able to find any specs for this cam. I found a procedure for degreeing in the cam but I don't know what this cam should be set at. Are there any standards for this type of engine? What kind of numbers should I expect?

Thanks, Ron

 

[GunMuse]

If the boat engines were like the other fords the 221 oil valley to feed the lifters often is restricted because its drilled from both ends and its off center. no big deal on solid lifters because more than enough oil gets through. Also up in the valve train where the oil comes out put a plug in there an drill a hole in the plug starting at .080 that will put pressure back into the low end where you need it and stop the over oiling in the heads.

The early fords just didn't convert directly from solid to hydraulic in a drop in fashion you really need to tweak the engines oil flow.

Its my guess without actually seeing the problem first hand that you don't have enough pressure in the lifters to set the valve train properly limiting your lift.

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[vintageAP]

"The early fords just didn't convert directly from solid to hydraulic in a drop in fashion you really need to tweak the engines oil flow"

GunMuse - I'd have to dissagree with that. All Windsor-based SBF's have the same oil track in the block, solid or hydraulic lifters. On this particular 221 Ford changed from solid lifters to hydraulic in late 1962 and made no changes to the block. Also the 271HP solid lifter 289's have the same system and hydraulics are a drop-in in those.

The oil pump feeds through the filter and then across the front of the block to a main passage that runs aft all the way to the back of the block. This passage has drops for the main bearings. At the back of the block it is drilled up through one lifter oil passage to a 'boss' in the back of the lifter galley where another passage angles back down to the other lifter passage. Both lifter passages run all the way forward from there to the front of the block and are plugged at the front. These 2 passages are drilled straight through the lifter bores on each side feeding the lifters. Oil pressure is ducted (term?) right around each lifter in a slot ringing the outside of the lifters.

To increase main bearing pressure in a race-only solid roller lifter engine you install that restrictor plug deep in the vertical passage that feeds up to the 'boss' at the back of the lifter galley, and also install restrictor plugs into the main bearing saddles in the 5 cam bearing feeds that run straight up out of the main bearing saddles.

 

[PackardV8]

The symptoms are like running a full race cam in a stock boat engine. Solid lifter camshafts have clearance ramps designed in. The solid lifters run with a designed clearance. If hydraulic lifters are run on a solid camshaft, don't they take up the clearance ramp, open the valves much sooner and effectively make the camshaft duration much longer?

thnx, jv.

 

[MikeHalloran]

For test purposes, you can back off the rockers until the lifters are completely pumped up and then a bit more to provide clearance.

But the snap rings in the lifters are not designed for that service.

You need to change either the cam or the lifters.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA