90° power transfer without "clutch"

[Flathead-guy]

Hello everyone, for reasons that need not be explained beyond "I enjoy a challenge". I am cutting a 221ci 1940 Ford v8 in half, mounting it sideways in a motorcycle frame.This would give me a 1,800cc V-4 motor.

I need to transfer the power from the crank to the rear wheel, but how? This would be roughly 50hp when completed. A conventional transmission and clutch wouldn't be possible, so I've been looking into using a CVT with chain drive to the rear wheel. Using a CVT would eliminate the need for a conventional clutch and gear box.

Any help or ideas would be appreciated.

 

[CWB1]

Sounds like an interesting project, please share pics once complete.

I would look into some variety of a traditional ring & pinion setup. While I have not had one apart, there are a number of larger shaft drive motorcycles you might salvage appropriate parts from, Moto Guzzi Goldwings, and a few others.

 

[kjoiner]

I have very limited motorcycle knowledge, but what about the method used on Harleys with a primary? It doesn't solve the clutch issue, however.

Kyle

 

[dgallup]

Honda made some experimental trials bikes with hydrostatic drives, makes the axis of rotation irrelevant and eliminates the need for clutch & gearbox. I think they put them in some production ATV's. BMW's of course have had drive shafts and ring & pinion gears forever. You might even be able to use their clutch & gearbox. Motus is making a V4 layout like you are contemplating, I've never seen one in person but you might be able to do something along the same lines.

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[BrianPetersen]

Same as most bikes. Chain. (Belt will limit your options for center distances and sprocket sizes, and you have to make sure the belt can be installed. Chains can be separated and put back together at a master link.)

Older Harleys have a gearbox and clutch assembly that is separate from the engine. That's pretty much the extent of my H-D knowledge. Maybe you could adapt one of those.

CVT? Snowmobile transmission. It's a rubber belt between shallow cone pulleys that compress or expand to change ratio. Make sure you have access to change the belt.

 

[dgallup]

Problem with any belt or chain drive is you need a right angle drive somewhere between the engine and final drives. Harley's have a transverse crank like most bikes, OP wants a longitudinal crank like a BMW opposed twin, Moto Guzzi or Gold Wing.

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[TugboatEng]

Honda CX500s are a dime a dozen and have an inline mounted engine with right angle drive. Perhaps you could cannibalize one of those.

 

[SwinnyGG]

OP wants a longitudinal crank like a BMW opposed twin

I'm not sure that's correct...

am cutting a 221ci 1940 Ford v8 in half, mounting it sideways in a motorcycle frame

I think your simplest route here might be a centrifugal clutch combined with a Harley-style two stage drive.

This will definitely require some engineering.

 

[Flathead-guy]

Thanks for all your help. I believe I've found my answer in using a snowmobile CVT. I've found others who have successfully used these for this same application. It seems that certain snowmobiles have 150+ HP, so it will easily handle the 50 HP that it will be taxed with.

 

[dgallup]

Well, the title is 90° power transfer

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[enginesrus]

There are many motorcycles built with those. You would do it similar to the average rear end differential, with a ring and pinion gear set up. Either straight bevel, spiral bevel or hypoid. I'm sure gear sets are readily available in the right size, you will need to build the case to support them. Or like someone mentioned make a ready made unit fit. Is it wise to ruin a good rare engine block like that?
This is more of a transmission than an engine related topic.

 

[BigClive]

I am still a bit confused - "mounting it sideways" to me would imply that the crankshaft is across the 'bike - yet there is a lot of talk about differentials, shaft drive etc.
Where does the "90 degrees" come into it?

 

[BrianPetersen]

That's what confused me, too. If you have a transverse engine, just use chain and sprockets like any normal bike. No bevel or hypoid gears needed.

As far as being "wise" ... the "wise" thing to do is to buy a normal bike off the showroom floor that already does what you want it to do (and will be "better" in every conceivable objective measurement). Custom projects are seldom "wise"!

 

[SuperSalad]

Thanks for all your help. I believe I've found my answer in using a snowmobile CVT. I've found others who have successfully used these for this same application. It seems that certain snowmobiles have 150+ HP, so it will easily handle the 50 HP that it will be taxed with.

I would be more concerned with the torque than the horsepower with regard to the strain on this. 150+ HP slicing through powder is very different than 50 HP pushing rubber down the road. I don't know the numbers, but I would expect the amount of torque on your transfer system to be pretty significant with a 1800 cc motor with regard to both output and weight.

Andrew H.

http://www.mototribology.com

 

[BrianPetersen]

Some snowmobiles are putting out far more power and torque than this engine would ever make!

 

[Tmoose]

"Some snowmobiles are putting out far more power and torque than this engine would ever make!"

Snowmobile engines have rolling element main bearings intended to handle significant radial load from belt drive belt tension.
If the OP has confirmed the engine orientation will place the clutch on the crank, some kind of support bearings for the crank output may be required.

 

[RodRico]

Per Wikipedia, torque from the last version of the engine was 144 lb-ft, so the half engine should be 72 lb-ft.

Per Snowmobiler, the ACE 900 Turbo makes 117 lb-ft torque, so any components produced for that snowmobile should be able to handle the 72 lb-ft from the V-4 (Note Snowmobiler publishes data for many snowmobiles at this Link). I wouldn't go this route personally.

Making a new V4 motorcycle is an unusual project given such a bike is available off-the-shelf from Motus Motorcycles. I suppose if one has more time than money, it may make some sense. If I were to attempt it, I would likely look into using an old Honda Goldwing transmission such as this one available for $440 on E-Bay. Per this site, the GL1100 produced 65 lb-ft torque at 5500 RPM (versus 72 lb-ft of the V4), but it likely has a lot of design margin, so it should be adequate. Because it's a motorcycle engine, it will already be set-up for a foot shifter and hand clutch, so installation should be straightforward.

 

[BrianPetersen]

"I wouldn't go this route, personally" ... heheh, me either.

V4 longitudinal with shaft drive ... Honda ST1300. Off the shelf. Honda reliability. Turn the key and go. And it'll probably go 200,000 km with just oil changes.

For that matter, V4 transverse with chain drive ... Honda VFR800. See above, just lighter.

Want sportier/faster? Ducati Panigale V4 ... which is a fabulous bike.

Any of the above will be "better" by any objective measure than anything that could ever possibly be rigged up using half of an outdated, wheezy flat-head engine connected to a soul-destroying automatic transmission, CVT or otherwise. But, I fully admit that I don't "get" customs, cruisers, choppers, or anything of the sort.

I've got a project bike on the hoist right now. It started out as a Yamaha R3 learner/commuter bike. It now has Ohlins suspension, rearset footpegs, clip-on handlebars, quick-shifter, engine guards, intake and exhaust work, and I'm waiting for the DOT race tires. That's my idea of making something "better". It will be my Lightweight Superbike roadrace bike for next year. Weighs 290 lbs.

 

[turbomotor]

Ducati Panagale V4 is a seriously nice bike, but so is the Aprilia.

https://www.cycleworld.com/2012/07/17/tech-analysis-aprilia-rsv4-factory-engine

 

[BrianPetersen]

Aye. I know a couple of people who have a Tuono. Another fabulous bike.