ornerynorsk
Industrial
Take that, Mr. Gore.
It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.
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A Lid for the Can of Worms. Good Heavens, We'll Freeze to Death! 41
- Thread starter ornerynorsk
- Start date
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Take that, Mr. Gore.
It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.
any data to back that up John? I have not seen any anecdotal evidence of 16 year-olds not getting cars or licenses. And since when do they vote?
Please stay on topic, ENG-Tips is definitely not the place for a "debate" on voter ID laws.
JohnRBaker
Mechanical
I heard this at a conference earlier this summer from a GM executive talking about the trends impacting the global automative marketplace.
While I don't know for sure, I suspect that this is the study (or one very much like it) which might have prompted the comments which were made at the conference:
Here's a recent item from the Washington Post (which if you follow the imbedded links in the article you'll eventually find the above study as well):
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
While I don't know for sure, I suspect that this is the study (or one very much like it) which might have prompted the comments which were made at the conference:
Here's a recent item from the Washington Post (which if you follow the imbedded links in the article you'll eventually find the above study as well):
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
That's just dumb, because most states can issue a state ID, or even a US passport. You can't even take a air flight without an ID.
Maybe it has to do more with a lower number of burths in the 90's (just a guess).
However it will have an effect on things like number of cars sold, and energy usage.
Has anyone noticed that the last big rise in electricty usage, which was predicted to be PC's, have become more efficent?
Maybe it has to do more with a lower number of burths in the 90's (just a guess).
However it will have an effect on things like number of cars sold, and energy usage.
Has anyone noticed that the last big rise in electricty usage, which was predicted to be PC's, have become more efficent?
JohnRBaker
Mechanical
Yes, but passports, drivers licenses are NOT free, and in some states a basic 'photo ID' is not free either. Which means that people are in essence being forced to PAY for the right to vote. And the Supreme Court has already ruled that 'Poll Taxes' are unconstitutional.
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
On the same vain, TSA won't take any goverment ID either. It must be a driver licence, or passport. It seems that in many places the drivers Licence has become a defacto national ID.
I went to renew my drivers licence, and they asked for something showing my address, like a utility bill. So much for on-line billing.
I think in some places they allow other forms of ID. Military ID, school ID, etc.
Besides taxes are not the same thing as Fees, or so the goverment officials will say.
I know this is off topic, so, to get back on topic, I believe any carbon taxes will be unfairly applied, because of unmeasurability, and goverment allowed exemptions. Sort of like the road taxes I par to run my lawn mower, and that electric cars don't pay.
If you really want to reduce fuel consumption, you can start by fixing iddling at stop lights, when no cars are in the cross way. I just hate seeing 30 cars waiting on a stop light for no reason other than the light hasen't changed.
I went to renew my drivers licence, and they asked for something showing my address, like a utility bill. So much for on-line billing.
I think in some places they allow other forms of ID. Military ID, school ID, etc.
Besides taxes are not the same thing as Fees, or so the goverment officials will say.
I know this is off topic, so, to get back on topic, I believe any carbon taxes will be unfairly applied, because of unmeasurability, and goverment allowed exemptions. Sort of like the road taxes I par to run my lawn mower, and that electric cars don't pay.
If you really want to reduce fuel consumption, you can start by fixing iddling at stop lights, when no cars are in the cross way. I just hate seeing 30 cars waiting on a stop light for no reason other than the light hasen't changed.
- Thread starter
- #206
ornerynorsk
Industrial
I think that's an unreasonable stretch to call a drivers license fee a poll tax. Are you OK with non-citizens voting, or posers coming and voting in your name? Nothing wrong with having to identify yourself in order to cast a vote.
It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.
It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.
ID requirements are:
(1) A North Carolina drivers license
(2) A special identification card for nonoperators
(3) A United States passport.
(4) A United States military identification card
(5) A Veterans Identification Card
(6) A tribal enrollment card
Residents who don't drive could obtain a state-issued ID from the Department of Motor Vehicles free of charge.
(1) A North Carolina drivers license
(2) A special identification card for nonoperators
(3) A United States passport.
(4) A United States military identification card
(5) A Veterans Identification Card
(6) A tribal enrollment card
Residents who don't drive could obtain a state-issued ID from the Department of Motor Vehicles free of charge.
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1
- #208
The whole voter ID thing is a transparent attempt by Republicans to suppress votes and lower turnout among certain groups.
If there was some actual voter fraud it would be different, but there isn't.
The North Carolina law also includes reducing early voting hours and no voting on Sunday. If it's about fraud, why include these provisions?
If there was some actual voter fraud it would be different, but there isn't.
The North Carolina law also includes reducing early voting hours and no voting on Sunday. If it's about fraud, why include these provisions?
Do you actually believe there is no voter fraud? What network of news to you aleage to?
It exists, we all know it, and in some places it is joked about. To what degree it exists we can debate, but to say it dosen't exist is burrying your head in the sand. The fact is we don't know how much voter fraud exists, because we can't verify without some type of ID system.
As to North Carolina, I can't say I am an expert as I have never been there, but no voting on Sunday sounds like a cost issue to keep the pooling stations open when there maybe few voters looking to vote.
In fact there is a joke, vote early, vote often, which eludes to voter fraud by one party. However, not being of either major party, I don't trust either one to give me an honest answer.
But why don't we take this discussion to a different forum, because this is off topic for this forum.
It exists, we all know it, and in some places it is joked about. To what degree it exists we can debate, but to say it dosen't exist is burrying your head in the sand. The fact is we don't know how much voter fraud exists, because we can't verify without some type of ID system.
As to North Carolina, I can't say I am an expert as I have never been there, but no voting on Sunday sounds like a cost issue to keep the pooling stations open when there maybe few voters looking to vote.
In fact there is a joke, vote early, vote often, which eludes to voter fraud by one party. However, not being of either major party, I don't trust either one to give me an honest answer.
But why don't we take this discussion to a different forum, because this is off topic for this forum.
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1
- Thread starter
- #210
ornerynorsk
Industrial
"The whole voter ID thing is a transparent attempt by Republicans to suppress votes and lower turnout among certain groups."
Oh, you mean groups that are unable, for some reason, to obtain an ID of any kind. Such as illegals and people who don't wish to be identified because of criminal history, perhaps? Oh yes, we want these people to vote, don't we ?!?!
Besides, how did this get to be a R vs D thing? Or is it possible that the scurvy dogs that Democrats are want every possible vote to further support their insane socialist Utopia?
Why don't we just give all of the illegals ID cards and that will immediately solve (the myth of) AGW.
It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.
Oh, you mean groups that are unable, for some reason, to obtain an ID of any kind. Such as illegals and people who don't wish to be identified because of criminal history, perhaps? Oh yes, we want these people to vote, don't we ?!?!
Besides, how did this get to be a R vs D thing? Or is it possible that the scurvy dogs that Democrats are want every possible vote to further support their insane socialist Utopia?
Why don't we just give all of the illegals ID cards and that will immediately solve (the myth of) AGW.
It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.
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3
- #211
Ah yes, this whole thing again. So the Republicans try passing voter ID laws, stating the exact reasons that ornerynorsk echoed. On the surface, it sounds kind of reasonable…but then you start to look into it a little closer and it starts to unravel very quickly.
There are two main charges against voter ID laws:
1) There are very few cases of voter fraud that would be stopped by voter ID laws (i.e. they are unnecessary and/or ineffective)
2) It’s discriminatory against certain groups, namely younger demographics, students, minorities and the poor
Regarding the first charge, what a voter ID law would protect against is people claiming to be someone who they were not and voting under that person’s name, aka voter impersonation (this is important to understand as there are certainly other forms of voter fraud). This endemic issue of voter impersonation, that is destroying the democratic process, has been tracked in a number of places. A extensive database found 2,068 cases of voter fraud...over the entire country...since 2000...of which only 10 were voter impersonation fraud.
Or another study that showed that in the 2004 election in Wisconsin there was one reported case of voter impersonation fraud...which turned out to be a clerical error. In New Jersery in 2004, the fraud rate was 0.0004%, none of which would have been prevented by voter ID at the polls. Missouri in 2000, a similar story; a fraud rate of 0.0003%, none of which would have been prevented by voter ID at the polls. (note these particular locations were studied due to the close margin of victory, i.e. would voter fraud have flipped the successful party).
I could go on...
According to Lorraine Minnite, professor of public policy and administration at Rutgers University, “The fraud that matters is the fraud that is organized. That’s why voter impersonation is practically non-existent because it is difficult to do and it is difficult to pull people into conspiracies to do it”.
The second charge is much more damning and also less black and white (quite the unintentionally ironic pun there). The concept of voter suppression is much more difficult to isolate from numerous other factors that affect voter turnout. For example, Georgia, after passing a strict voter ID law, saw an increase in voter turnout amongst African-Americans in 2008. However, this just so happened to be when Obama was running and coincided with a general increase in voter turnout across the nation. But still, this could be used as an example against the voter suppression argument...although it’s not well supported by other research on the topic.
Given the complexity of the issue, some serious research has gone into it. According to a study by Shelly de Alth, in the Harvard Law & Policy Review, “voter ID laws impose a real burden on millions of voters”. The study says “that states with voter ID laws experienced a 1.6 to 2.2 percentage point decline in 2006 voter turnout, 3 to 4.5 million voters were disenfranchised by the laws”.
A similar study finds that the “expansion of Voter ID statutes has demobilized Democratic-leaning individuals including young adults, renters, the poor and African Americans using individual voting records over a series of four elections (2004-2010).”
As an aside, 8% of Caucasians of voting age do not have photo ID while 25% of African Americans of voting age do not have photo id. source. Another survey shows that 18% of elderly citizens, 15% of voters earning less than $35,000/yr, 18% or citizens aged 18-24, 10% of voters with disabilities and 25% of African-American citizens of voting age don’t have government issued photo ID (source). The numbers jump around from study to study but they all paint a similar picture. The number of people without photo ID is significant and it affects minorities more than Caucasians.
At best, it can be said that voter ID laws are ineffective against fraud at large and lack significant data to say they are blatantly discriminatory (it’s quite the accomplishment to say “this law is likely ineffective but, hey, it’s maybe not racists...that’s a plus!”). At worst, it’s a simple ploy by Republicans to suppress students’, minorities’ and the poor’s right to vote which, surprise, surprise, trend towards voting for the Democrats.
I agree this has nothing to do with the original topic but given how the original poster added a comment in support of restrictive (and arguable discriminatory) voting laws after claiming that a left leaning tax was fascist, I felt compelled to respond. That’s right folks:
- Laws that makes it more difficult to vote, specifically for minorities and the poor = democracy at work
- Tax on carbon by a left-of-center government that uses the revenue to give tax credits to low income families = fascism
There are two main charges against voter ID laws:
1) There are very few cases of voter fraud that would be stopped by voter ID laws (i.e. they are unnecessary and/or ineffective)
2) It’s discriminatory against certain groups, namely younger demographics, students, minorities and the poor
Regarding the first charge, what a voter ID law would protect against is people claiming to be someone who they were not and voting under that person’s name, aka voter impersonation (this is important to understand as there are certainly other forms of voter fraud). This endemic issue of voter impersonation, that is destroying the democratic process, has been tracked in a number of places. A extensive database found 2,068 cases of voter fraud...over the entire country...since 2000...of which only 10 were voter impersonation fraud.
Or another study that showed that in the 2004 election in Wisconsin there was one reported case of voter impersonation fraud...which turned out to be a clerical error. In New Jersery in 2004, the fraud rate was 0.0004%, none of which would have been prevented by voter ID at the polls. Missouri in 2000, a similar story; a fraud rate of 0.0003%, none of which would have been prevented by voter ID at the polls. (note these particular locations were studied due to the close margin of victory, i.e. would voter fraud have flipped the successful party).
I could go on...
According to Lorraine Minnite, professor of public policy and administration at Rutgers University, “The fraud that matters is the fraud that is organized. That’s why voter impersonation is practically non-existent because it is difficult to do and it is difficult to pull people into conspiracies to do it”.
The second charge is much more damning and also less black and white (quite the unintentionally ironic pun there). The concept of voter suppression is much more difficult to isolate from numerous other factors that affect voter turnout. For example, Georgia, after passing a strict voter ID law, saw an increase in voter turnout amongst African-Americans in 2008. However, this just so happened to be when Obama was running and coincided with a general increase in voter turnout across the nation. But still, this could be used as an example against the voter suppression argument...although it’s not well supported by other research on the topic.
Given the complexity of the issue, some serious research has gone into it. According to a study by Shelly de Alth, in the Harvard Law & Policy Review, “voter ID laws impose a real burden on millions of voters”. The study says “that states with voter ID laws experienced a 1.6 to 2.2 percentage point decline in 2006 voter turnout, 3 to 4.5 million voters were disenfranchised by the laws”.
A similar study finds that the “expansion of Voter ID statutes has demobilized Democratic-leaning individuals including young adults, renters, the poor and African Americans using individual voting records over a series of four elections (2004-2010).”
As an aside, 8% of Caucasians of voting age do not have photo ID while 25% of African Americans of voting age do not have photo id. source. Another survey shows that 18% of elderly citizens, 15% of voters earning less than $35,000/yr, 18% or citizens aged 18-24, 10% of voters with disabilities and 25% of African-American citizens of voting age don’t have government issued photo ID (source). The numbers jump around from study to study but they all paint a similar picture. The number of people without photo ID is significant and it affects minorities more than Caucasians.
At best, it can be said that voter ID laws are ineffective against fraud at large and lack significant data to say they are blatantly discriminatory (it’s quite the accomplishment to say “this law is likely ineffective but, hey, it’s maybe not racists...that’s a plus!”). At worst, it’s a simple ploy by Republicans to suppress students’, minorities’ and the poor’s right to vote which, surprise, surprise, trend towards voting for the Democrats.
I agree this has nothing to do with the original topic but given how the original poster added a comment in support of restrictive (and arguable discriminatory) voting laws after claiming that a left leaning tax was fascist, I felt compelled to respond. That’s right folks:
- Laws that makes it more difficult to vote, specifically for minorities and the poor = democracy at work
- Tax on carbon by a left-of-center government that uses the revenue to give tax credits to low income families = fascism
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1
- #212
I happen to know someone who had some difficulty getting a valid ID. His apartment burned down and he lost his ID and birth certificate. He could not get a replacement drivers license without a birth certificate and he could not get a replacement birth certificate without a valid photo ID (Post 9/11). It took him 6 months and lot of trouble to get his ID back. If an election had occurred during that time, he might have been turned away even though he was a legal resident and entitled to vote.
Voter fraud is like big foot. Lots of people claim it is real, but no one has any evidence to prove it. Every example I have ever heard (felons casting votes, a lady with dementia trying to vote twice,) would not have been prevented with voter ID. And, if anyone wanted to vote fraudulently with voter ID in place, all they would have to do is vote absentee. It attempts to solve a non-existent problem. And it still fails.
Johnny Pellin
Voter fraud is like big foot. Lots of people claim it is real, but no one has any evidence to prove it. Every example I have ever heard (felons casting votes, a lady with dementia trying to vote twice,) would not have been prevented with voter ID. And, if anyone wanted to vote fraudulently with voter ID in place, all they would have to do is vote absentee. It attempts to solve a non-existent problem. And it still fails.
Johnny Pellin
Oh...and one more thing in regards to the “how did this get to be a R vs D thing?” question. Besides the fact that the groups affected by the laws are specifically supporters of democrats (as stated above), consider the fact:
- In the Supreme Court case that overturned part of the Voting Rights Act, the 5 republican-appointed judges voted for the motion and the 4 democrat-appointed judges voted against it. (here)
So, ya, it’s kinda a “R v D thing”
- In the Supreme Court case that overturned part of the Voting Rights Act, the 5 republican-appointed judges voted for the motion and the 4 democrat-appointed judges voted against it. (here)
So, ya, it’s kinda a “R v D thing”
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4
- #214
As a non-American, I just shake my head at both sides of this argument. Y'all have had voter turnout around 55% for the last 100 years. Between this and Gerrymandering, it's all so odd. The so-called paragon of democracy worldwide can't get much more than half of your eligible voters out.
So, stop yer partisan bickerin' and figure out how to engage the perpetual 45% of yer peoples out to exercise their rights.
Or maybe these folks see the "reality" that many of us feriners see, and that the choices currently being presented are bat shit crazy and bat shit insane (sometimes I can't tell who is who, most time it doesn't seem to matter...). Y'all have been led to believe that it's a left-right thing. From a much broader perspective, I can tell you that this is a false choice that you've been brainwashed into accepting.
Now, get back to yer Nascar and NFL and ignore the true and real mess that your politicians of both/every stripe have put you in.
(For those of you who don't appreciate it, there's a fair bit o sarcasm here - well, maybe just a bit...)
So, stop yer partisan bickerin' and figure out how to engage the perpetual 45% of yer peoples out to exercise their rights.
Or maybe these folks see the "reality" that many of us feriners see, and that the choices currently being presented are bat shit crazy and bat shit insane (sometimes I can't tell who is who, most time it doesn't seem to matter...). Y'all have been led to believe that it's a left-right thing. From a much broader perspective, I can tell you that this is a false choice that you've been brainwashed into accepting.
Now, get back to yer Nascar and NFL and ignore the true and real mess that your politicians of both/every stripe have put you in.
(For those of you who don't appreciate it, there's a fair bit o sarcasm here - well, maybe just a bit...)
TGS4,
Looks like yours is trending the same way. Or is that just a (ice)hockey stick?
Looks like yours is trending the same way. Or is that just a (ice)hockey stick?
One of the big reasons that voter turnout is low (in Canada and the US) is because many people see no point in voting. Everyone elected is an idiot, a crook, or both, and the end result is a government full of bickering thieves, who are funnelling money to their friends and themselves.
So what's the point in voting? What will it change? Nothing.
So what's the point in voting? What will it change? Nothing.
Yup - we have the same issue. We have local (city) elections coming up in two weeks. Some pundits are predicting turnout on the order of 30%. (Shakes head)
On a global scale of right-left, our right-most party still would be left of the Democrats. They passionately believe in universal healthcare, paid for by the taxpayer. So, I do laugh when R supports call D supporters "commies" - they likely have never actually known communism, not would they know a truly otherwise leftist party if it smacked them in the face. We have a very leftist party - and yet even they take care to stay far enough away from Marxism. Perspective...
(As an aside, how many R supporters actually grew up in Eastern Europe and experienced real communism?)
On a global scale of right-left, our right-most party still would be left of the Democrats. They passionately believe in universal healthcare, paid for by the taxpayer. So, I do laugh when R supports call D supporters "commies" - they likely have never actually known communism, not would they know a truly otherwise leftist party if it smacked them in the face. We have a very leftist party - and yet even they take care to stay far enough away from Marxism. Perspective...
(As an aside, how many R supporters actually grew up in Eastern Europe and experienced real communism?)
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1
- #218
CajunCenturion
Computer
==> Everyone elected is an idiot, a crook, or both, and the end result is a government full of bickering thieves, who are funnelling money to their friends and themselves.
Absolutely, and contrary to what others want to believe, that is NOT an R/D thing. Regardless of where you stand, just don't vote for an incumbent. Let's replace everyone.
Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
Absolutely, and contrary to what others want to believe, that is NOT an R/D thing. Regardless of where you stand, just don't vote for an incumbent. Let's replace everyone.
Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
- Thread starter
- #219
ornerynorsk
Industrial
Voter ID is discriminatory???? Against whom? Your examples are simply preposterous. They are the very people who need ID's anyway, so they can obtain their other entitlements! Yes, I actually just said that. No apologies.
It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.
It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.
JohnRBaker
Mechanical
So the franchise is now an 'entitlement', eh?
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
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