A LITTLE KNOWLEDGE .......

[C2it]

This is a bit desparate. Two questions raised today in another forum specialising in pipe stress analysis software and its applications(quoted exactly)...

Quote 1:
I am currently analysing Cargo offloading Piping for FPSO.
Which is runing around 250m with 55°C as temp I need to determine loops in this run. What are the criterias I should take into considerations.

Quote 2:
Dear All,
I have a problem of stress analysis fo a vapor return piping from of column. What are the different criterias to be considered in analysing this system.

I wonder how these individuals have found themselves in the position of being told to do the work, whilst clearly having not a clue where to start or how to execute the analysis. Have they misled their managers ? Perhaps they are afraid to ask a question in the office and thereby admit their lack of knowledge and experience ? If they pick up a few buzzwords from the site, will they go on to fumble their way through an analysis, probably without a thought about checking or verifying results ?

These are by no means isolated incidents. My concern is that there are many disasters being stored up for the future here.

 

[stanier]

How many times do you attend a HAZOPS and find the design is not sufficiently developed to conduct same. The meeting ends up as a design review and the HAZOPS has to be repeated when the design reaches a more developed stage.

This not only costs companies for the delayed & repeated meeting but takes valuable program time. This delays the project and results in cost overruns. When are the MBAs going to get it?

I am constantly finding that I have to educate engineers so that they understand the questions I ask and the information I seek. I have even been accused of being difficult when asking for the range of process conditions so that I can adequately undertake a waterhammer or pipe stress analysis.

On the other hand if you ask a dumb question you only look dumb for a few mintes. if you dont ask the question you are dumb for the rest of your life.

It galls me because companies dont want to pay for the experience until of course one ends up in court.

$1 spent at concept stage is worth $10 at design stage
$100 at procurement stage
$1,000 at fabrication stage
$10,000 during construction and
$100,00 during commissioning
$1 million dollars once the lawyers are involved!!!!!!!!!!

“There always appears to be enough money to investigate a failure but never enough to do the design engineering in the first place”

The Engineers’ Lament

Soap box now put away for another day.

 

[stanier]

I dont believe that insurance companies are the coverall backstop that many believe. In a case I was involved in recently the insurance company refused to pay out because the company claimed things about a piping product that were patently untrue and untested. When the company was sued for a failure, and lost, the insurance company refused to cover them. The company tried to sue the insurance company but lost and was left with paying out the product liability claim.

 

[DSB123]

stanier,
I agree with you but the MBA's/Project managers think by saving/cutting engineering costs is a good idea (shows you what types of morons they are) and do not realize that "engineering cost's" are trivial compared with rectifying poor design in the field (because construction costs are looked at separately). If the MBA's/Project managers were bright enough to consider overall costs they would see that a small amount of additional money spent on design would save money during construction. But unfortunately we have Project Managers (not all of them) who cannot see the overall picture of a Project and are basically ex- draughies who were crap at their job and jumped onto the Project bandwagon. That's fact!!

 

[desertfox]

Hi

Agree with stainer and DSB123, the old saying"we never have time to do it right the first time but we always have time to do it all over again" comes to mind.

desertfox

 

[IRstuff]

It's very convenient to blame everything on MBAs, but problems like this existed way before MBAs became popular.

We had to reverse engineer our own PC boards because the engineering managers, who came up the ranks as engineers, saw no reason to maintain backups of the board designs. Needless to say, after a few years, the workstation containing the designs was given to a new engineer who assumed that he had license to erase everything on his harddrives to make room for his own designs. Bzzz!! This occurred in an organization with nary an MBA to be found.

Another instance was that for the same boards it was deemed too expensive to test at the board level, and the mode of test would be to plug the boards into the system and just fire it up and see what happens. Needless to say, quite often, the result was the release of the stored smoke. On another occasion, a laser system was installed and failed to operate, so the technician decided to try another, with identical results. He was on the verge of trying a 3rd laser before the production engineer was advised and suggested that it was possibly the I/O board that was bad. So $400K of hardware tango-uniform, but we saved money by not pretesting the boards.

Incompetence, stupidity, and just plain "I forgots" are immortal and timeless. While there's no love lost here for MBAs, the problems run deeper than that.



TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[sspeare]

IRstuff makes a good point. Yes, even engineers (non-MBAs) can make big mistakes. I guess what really bothers me is that management wants to stuff everybody, not just engineers, into little pigeon hole where they are only allowed to do limited tasks. Often employees are working at cross-purposes: "the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing."

But, you see, management wants it that way. They want plausible deniability when things go wrong. It's fascinating that management types who encourage confusion are always able to plead ignorance when there is a blow-up. "Why wasn't I informed of this?" is a typical response. The employee would like to say: "Well, Boss, you are not informed because you never take time to actually manage your project. You need to take your head out of your arse and talk to the people who actually work".

I am NOT encouraging anybody who needs to put food on the table to actually use those words to the Boss. But I just don't know how you get some of these management types to listen. It is a problem that begins with GREED at the very top of the organization. Unhappily, the economic downturn (Depression?) makes employees think twice before they talk back.

 

[DSB123]

sspeare,
Why not use words like that if it applies. I know when I meet my maker I can look him straight in the eye and say " People may not have liked what I said but I've always been honest and said my piece". That's the problem nowadays - people are too PC and scared to say it as it is. Perhaps that's a way of ensuring employment but sorry I would not be able to go through life like that. Have some "balls" and tell bosses/PM's etc what you know to be true. Jabbering behind their backs is basically cowardice!!

 

[gmax137]

Maybe some of you guys should move into project management, you seem to have a better grasp of what needs to be done there than the guys currently in those positions. So, what's stopping you? You'd be doing your company and your fellow employees a favor.

 

[DSB123]

gmax137,
It's a simple answer - Enjoy engineering as regards the technical aspects and don't want to become a glorified tech clerk!!!

 

[sspeare]

Good point about having the "balls" to say what's on your mind. Several times during my long career I have spoken frankly to the "Boss". One time I told the Boss: "Obviously you are ignorant of the physics involved with this problem. There is no point in discussing it further." It felt good to say it to his face. He fired me 2 weeks later. I asked him why he was firing me. He said it was because of my "ignorant of physics" statement. My statement was perfectly true, but how did it help me?

The point is: when you're young you can get away with saying what you want, because you can always move on to another job. But when you're 55 years old, and have been in the trenches all your life "enjoying the technical aspects" with a B.S. degree in Mechanical, your options are limited. My options are especially limited in the economy in my little world, at the moment. Oh sure, I could move to Dubai, but did I mention the part about being 55 years old?

Finally, as far as "you guys should move into project management, you seem to have a better grasp of what needs to be done there than the guys currently in those positions", well ..... I don't want to be a project manager. Project managers these days are simply whores for the client. They don't back up their own people. I couldn't live with myself if I were a project manager.

 

[stanier]

I find it amazing the number of people who aspire to become project managers but do not understand the fundamental requirements. They are usually defrocked draightsmen who see an opportuntiy for a better life.

A project manager needs to know budget control & reporting, industrial relations, contract law , client communications, project planning, environmental law, community expectations, government regulations as well as being across the broader aspects of engineering. Many project managers stumble through aspects of these criteria. An MBA at least covers these topics. So give me aproject manager with an MBA any day over one that is learning by their mistakes.

What appears to be missing in our industries is the notion of the common good overriding short term perceived profits. Many an ignorant project manager sees that a profit at the end of the job is a success. If the client is left with a massive maintenance bill then how is it a success?

Life cycle costing is a reality but too often ignored by contractor project manager and client project manager alike. That is why alliance contracting has come to the fore. But alas the quality of the project manager is no better although the project delivery mechanism may be.

Hence we come back to the difficulty of "a little knowledge". There is no answer but to upskill our project managers from government, contractor, design consultant and client organisations so that they are enlightened.

 

[DSB123]

sspeare,
Age has nothing to do with being honest to oneself and tell people like it is. I'm no youngster (older than you) but will not shy away from being honest and straight with people.

stanier,
You seem to have the same opinion as me regarding the origin of most Project Manager/engineers. Failed Draughies though not defrocked. Unfortunately these people beleive they know everything about Project Management and do not need training/upskilling. The majority have had no training- never read a project management book and just bumble along from day to day making poor decisions (because they know better than a trained and qualified engineer)and when it all starts to go wrong they either bail out and get another job or pass the buck blaming someone else. That's fact. Remember you cannot upskill people who are low/devoid of cells between the ears.