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A step forward or a step back?

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ajack1

Automotive
Nov 24, 2003
1,148
Over the past few years at least in the automotive trade things have tightened up considerably.

As CAD, CNC and robotics have improved so have the tolerances that parts are made too, this in no doubt improves the build quality of cars. When Joe used to assemble parts he knew that if you tweaked in part A it would fit part B, a robot has no concept of this.

Fit and function now seem a thing of the past at least in my field, if it passes a CAP study the part is good if not it is a reject. Manufacturing procedures have had to change and reworking is a thing of the past, or so I thought.

I was with a client yesterday, who manufactures mostly hinges, tailgates, bonnets and doors. Some are pressed and some are cast. They now send all there casting work to India, and the quality is appalling, that is not to say all work done there is.

To overcome this they have a shop full of Eastern Europeans mostly Albanians who hand work the parts to a required standard, but with many rejects. However they seem to have researched this and still feel it is a cost effective way to work.

Is this a flash in the pan or the way things will move forward? Over the last few years at least in the UK the “idea” seems to be to automate things and cut down on manpower, this seems to buck the trend.

With India and China now becoming major players and Africa seemingly untapped, with the possible exception of mining are we about to see high man power return and if so how long is it sustainable as wages will certainly increase.

Will they go down the same route as the west, and Japan and slowly automate?
 
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Don't you get the impression that we've gone a little too far down the automation route?

One of the things that impressed me about Japanese production lines is that they don't /automate/, but they do have a lot of special purpose jigs and so on so that the assembly worker's job is simplified so the quality improves.

For example, where we have two robot welders welding a body side, they have a big frame that holds the body side and spins it around, allowing the welder to stand in one place as the job is brought to him.







Cheers

Greg Locock

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Someone once told me about a book concerning the "Toyota" manufacturing practice, and lately I've been thinking about picking it up, but I can t remember the name.

**** As fart as the aerospace industry (my part anyway) goes, volume is small enough that the cost of "people" is still less than the cost of "automation"... This is changing though. Just look at the Northrop "production line" for JSF.

I think the difference between today (and tomorrow), and the industrialization of the last 100 years is in the quality of "craftsmanship". Automation destroyed craftsmanship, for good or bad. We produce more for less through automation, which is great for the consumer. (Hey wait a minute, you mean I can't work on my own car withough the "General Mitsu-wagon" Computer software and laptop and diagnostics machine, which i can get for only $75000) If the trend actually goes toward more workers and away from automation, they will certainly be unskilled, or "low skilled" workers. Companies don't pay for skill anymore, but they'll spend billions on technology.

Wes C.
 
The death of craftsmanship is a good thing.

By craftsmanship I mean having to fettle parts so they will fit.



Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
 
Automation has its place as so does craftsmanship. Building cars on an assembly line when you build thousands of the same model with various options with automation is fine. Now lets build a McClaren F-1 or a Viper with automation. Automation doesn't work.
 
A Viper? Thrown together just like a Neon.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
 
Greg,
I agree with your observation that the Japanese make complicated jigs so that line operators job is simplified. Last week I happened to visit Toyota's plant near Bangalore where a number of fixtures were rejected and kept aside. To my eyes they were very good, but had some minor flaws which could have been salvaged. These were fixtures used for supporting the parts during heat treatment.
 
What role in this trend to automation do you feel unions play in these industries? While I agree that unions can provide better working conditions for the employees I have a hard time seeing how companies that pay people $25/hr(to start?) to spot weld four different points can possibly be profitable.

That was not meant to change the subject of the thread, but in Japan and India are there unions? Perhaps for them it is cheaper to have thousands working instead of hundreds of robots. I am not sure.
 
Well the simple solution to this is to ask what kind of place you want to live in. Would you pay a few dollars more for a product if you would be providing someone else a more comfortable lifestyle. The american answer is, NO! Thus Walmart is beating the unions almost everywhere.


Simple economics dictates that in order for a company to MAKE somthing for a Profit, people must BUY it. As more people Loose jobs to Automation (which I understand is an oversimplificatin of the issue) then there are Less people who can afford to buy the product, driving a demand for lower production costs inorder to maximize profit, laying more people off work as supply declines. So profits now lower, because these people can not afford to buy the product (read.. made in the USA here), that the product be sent by the company overseas to be manufactured to lower the cost further. But by sending the product line overseas, a factory is closed here, laying off even more people, driving the demand for the product down further... and then the company seeing that it can not profit enough for its shareholders by making the product, then liscenses the idea to a company in india (laying you and me - fellow design engineer off), so the company can remain profitable to it's shareholders... read now only employing a small corporate staff, but making nothing and employing NO ONE...

So I get a job managing the Sience & Engineering Book Department at my local Borders Books, cutting my salary in 1/3, but, hey, at least I have a job...


AND WE CALL THAT PROGRESS

Wes C.
 
I'd look at it the other way, assuming you have a functioning economy (big ask).

The guy who used to make plastic grot sells his machine and orders it over the phone from China. Obviously he can order far more than he used to be able to make. His profit per part is less, but he sells more of them, so his income is equal to his old salary. However, he can now afford to buy more plastic grot, because they are cheaper, because there are more of them.

So, if you want lots of plastic grot then Walmart's approach makes sense.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
 
Not trying to sound anti-capitalism (which I am not) in order to maintain a healthy society we must manitain well paying jobs so people can buy all that plastic grot that Walmart has on it's shelf.

Why would our children with to give this life a real "go" when it is fully aparant to them that thier standard of living will be lower than it that of thier parents.

Employment (or lack of it) will be a real engineering problem worth taking on over the next century.

Wes C.
 
wes616
"Why would our children with to give this life a real "go" when it is fully aparant to them that thier standard of living will be lower than it that of thier parents. "

Does it mean that all that goes up must come down!!

But in a reverse order my life is better than my father's and I can see that my son will have a better life than mine. Is this progress?
 
Well while I was growing up, it was a commonly stated that the American Dream really was for your children to have a better (economic) life than you do.

In 20th century history, this is commonly attributed to the increasing industrialization of America, and a stroke of luck called World War II where American factories were not destroyed like many other nations around the world. ***The key to this American dream what that everyone who WANTED a good job, HAD a good job (by good i mean well paying).

This is not so much the case any more, as we see our manufacturing jobs eliminated and replaced by much lower paying service and retail industry jobs. Free Trade... Just listen to the Economic News. You will hear this. Job recoverty, yes... but look at who is hiring, and where jobs are still being lost!

I am not trying to make any specific statement.. this is of course a generalization. It is not a giant leap to come to the conclusion that the next generation of americans will not be as well off as the current, or last.

Hope not to offend the non americans on this list...

Wes C.
 
Well in that case I think the American dream is now officially over.

Future generations will never be able to dive in the Great Barrier Reef, or walk in the Himalayas, and see them relatvely unspoilt and undamaged. They are building internet cafes all the way up the Everest track, according to a friend of mine who went back last year, and the Barrier Reef is, I think being damaged by a whole bunch of things, and is unlikely to recover any time soon.



Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
 
Greg,

You are probablly right about the "american dream", and you are without doubt correct about the Great Barrier Reef and the Himalayas... and counless other "wonders" that are being McGlobalized. I heard recently that Some country was going to sell corporate sponserships to its great mountains.... So our children, instead of climbing K2, may instead climb FedEx Peak or Office Depot Mountain.... in the BMW Range :-D

Wes C.
 
I forget who said it " the only constant in this world is change".
And "In times of change the learners inherit the Earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists." Erik Hoffer...[dragon]

God, give us grace to accept with serenity the things that cannot be changed, courage to change the things which should be changed, and the wisdom to distinguish the one from the other.........Reinhold Niebuhr

This is evolution. We evolve or we die out. That is the history of our universe.

Life is what happens while we're making other plans.

Wally
 
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