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Abandon NO? That would be political suicide. 4
- Thread starter plasgears
- Start date
davidbeach
Electrical
I don't know whether NO should be abandoned or not, but neither Galveston nor Miami are below sea level.
We have been playing with the Mississippi river for years. The levees and "management" of the river have resulted in the destruction of barrier islands and marshland around the delta. The decision to abandon it may be moot.
It's not nice to fool with mother nature, we have, the piper may have to be paid.
So if we move it is it "New New Orleans" or N^2 O for short?
It's not nice to fool with mother nature, we have, the piper may have to be paid.
So if we move it is it "New New Orleans" or N^2 O for short?
davidbeach
Electrical
Just wait for the next New Madrid earthquake; at that point NO won't even be on the Mississippi anymore.
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1
- #6
If you want to live below sea level, join the navy.
Long term the site of New Orleans is not a viable place for a community. It is s shifting delta island that will sooner or later be washed into the sea.
The only question is how much money will it cost to delay this event and what is the benefit of spending that amount? If there is a positive return and this return is greater than rebuilding the city is a more stable plot of land then it should be rebuilt,. If rebuilding NO is the best use of the money then the community should be rebuilt.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
Long term the site of New Orleans is not a viable place for a community. It is s shifting delta island that will sooner or later be washed into the sea.
The only question is how much money will it cost to delay this event and what is the benefit of spending that amount? If there is a positive return and this return is greater than rebuilding the city is a more stable plot of land then it should be rebuilt,. If rebuilding NO is the best use of the money then the community should be rebuilt.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
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- #8
SlideRuleEra
Structural
Here is a review of the reclamation of Galveston
...with an interesting quote from that link:
"While Galveston received financial help from the county, state and federal governments, a large portion of the burden had to be carried by the city itself, at the expense of other projects."
Doubt if the the City of New Orleans can pay anywhere near a large portion of the multi-tens of billion dollars estimated cost to rebuild.
![[reading]](/data/assets/smilies/reading.gif "[reading] [reading]")
...with an interesting quote from that link:
"While Galveston received financial help from the county, state and federal governments, a large portion of the burden had to be carried by the city itself, at the expense of other projects."
Doubt if the the City of New Orleans can pay anywhere near a large portion of the multi-tens of billion dollars estimated cost to rebuild.
GolfMeeting
Bioengineer
The area of NO that was below sea level was STOLEN property. This area should have remained marshes and swamps, and needs to be returned to the wildlife!!!!!
The only area with an exception to the above is the ports which should be rebuilt. The area of NO above sea level should be free game to be rebuilt.
The only area with an exception to the above is the ports which should be rebuilt. The area of NO above sea level should be free game to be rebuilt.
Does it make sense to rebuild portions of the city (the portions below sea level) where it isn't a question of 'if' but 'when' it floods again. After all, hurricanes do happen in that part of the world with regularity, whether or not it is a peak year for hurricanes.
And, does it make sense to repopulate that portion of the city that is below sea level, or any part of a city subject to the ravages of hurricanes on a periodic basis with people whose socio-economic level don't permit them to have their own personal transportation with which to escape such jeopardy?
rmw
And, does it make sense to repopulate that portion of the city that is below sea level, or any part of a city subject to the ravages of hurricanes on a periodic basis with people whose socio-economic level don't permit them to have their own personal transportation with which to escape such jeopardy?
rmw
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- #11
Humanity as a whole does not seem to care whether or not it lives in danger of natural disaster or not. I am not sure that there is any place truly free of the potential of natural disasters. New Orleans is an important port and a economic "gateway" into the central part of the US. The city will be rebuilt, perhaps as the "Venice" of North America.
Regards,
Regards,
One big difference between how the Dutch build dikes and how the US builds them is that in The Netherlands the dikes are considered a national resource and not a state or local issue.
They are well funded and maintained by national resources and their design, constriction, operation and maintenance is not left to local interests but done by the national government and removed from local politics.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
They are well funded and maintained by national resources and their design, constriction, operation and maintenance is not left to local interests but done by the national government and removed from local politics.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
Not a question of if but when?
Is it the recomendation to wait for the next disaster or move now (while buyers can still be found?)
What do we advise the residents of LA with their houses built on an earthquake fault, on the slopes of crumbly mud hillsides where mud slides ae common and where fires are an annual event that wipes out many expensive properties.
Come to that, when is the next metero due? Oh, I forgot, we don't have a choice on that one.
![[wink]](/data/assets/smilies/wink.gif "[wink] [wink]")
JMW
Is it the recomendation to wait for the next disaster or move now (while buyers can still be found?)
What do we advise the residents of LA with their houses built on an earthquake fault, on the slopes of crumbly mud hillsides where mud slides ae common and where fires are an annual event that wipes out many expensive properties.
Come to that, when is the next metero due? Oh, I forgot, we don't have a choice on that one.
JMW
As someone who lives in "Tornado Alley", I'll suggest that like wars, natural disasters serve to spur activity in local economies when they happen. It is simply human nature to rebuild, it's human nature to be thrifty, and its human nature for sentiment to over rule facts and logic. Not much strategic planning is put in to rebuilding efforts. It's why you'll find new homes being put up on old foundations in tornado country. As in "Why waste a perfectly good concrete slab? ...and besides that, my children were born here!"
The scope of destruction aside, there are a great many individuals, businesses, and industries looking to profit off of the reconstruction of New Orleans.
Another point: Insurance companies will reinsure those living in the flood plain. You know why? They'll be able to charge significantly higher premiums to the citizens who remain to insure against an event that probably won't reoccur in scale for another 40 years, i.e. Hurricane Camille, before Katrina.
I'd suggest to you that the decision to rebuild is not one of common sense, or geology, or science, but rather one of emotion and above all else: economics.
And how often do we square up against those two very factors in our engineering jobs?...
Familiar foes to me, at least.
Abandoning some 6000 square miles of territory is not likely. It is going to take time (years) to rebuild the whole area of which New Orleans has become a symbol and perhaps a rallying point.
Area inhabitants are still trying to get the basic needs of food, water, shelter covered before they can even address economic problems. (Current jobs consist of people being paid to empty debris out of cleared houses). A friend recently returned from volunteering in one of the parishes under the auspices of FEMA (they told him to mask FEMA on his credential as they are still not very well liked there). He did a presentation upon returning and the picture is still a bit grim.
Most areas were still without power where he was located.
Some 19000 tons of debris were being removed from within the parish but they still had no real place to dispose of it so they pile it up near the parish borders.
Homes are still being cleared a process complicated by snakes etc, that begin taking up "residence" inside homes and businesses.
Respiratory problems are prevalent due to molds, and dust.
Local emergency services have been working virtually nonstop for 3 months.
The big problem seems lack of cogent planning on the part of councils and leaders. They are still in a state of shock.
The area will be rebuilt, perhaps a more appropriate term might be re-settled.
Regards,
Area inhabitants are still trying to get the basic needs of food, water, shelter covered before they can even address economic problems. (Current jobs consist of people being paid to empty debris out of cleared houses). A friend recently returned from volunteering in one of the parishes under the auspices of FEMA (they told him to mask FEMA on his credential as they are still not very well liked there). He did a presentation upon returning and the picture is still a bit grim.
Most areas were still without power where he was located.
Some 19000 tons of debris were being removed from within the parish but they still had no real place to dispose of it so they pile it up near the parish borders.
Homes are still being cleared a process complicated by snakes etc, that begin taking up "residence" inside homes and businesses.
Respiratory problems are prevalent due to molds, and dust.
Local emergency services have been working virtually nonstop for 3 months.
The big problem seems lack of cogent planning on the part of councils and leaders. They are still in a state of shock.
The area will be rebuilt, perhaps a more appropriate term might be re-settled.
Regards,
- Moderator
- #18
I understand that Katrina made Cat. 5 offshore but was down to Cat. 4 when it made landfall.
Just for comparison, look at some of the stats for Mitch. It doesn't make a lot of the lists stateside because many (most?) of the lists are restricted to hurricanes that strike the U.S.
The death toll of Mitch in southern Honduras, several hundred miles away from the center of the storm is estimated at 7000 or 8000 souls. Original estimates were "More than 5000, Less than 10,000." Whole villages and the inhabitants were obliterated by flash flooding. In the capital city, Tegucigalpa, buildings were flooded to the third floor.
Hundreds of miles to the North East, the island of Guanaja was hit on Monday with a Cat. 5 hurricane.
Tuesday it was hit again with a stronger Cat 5 hurricane.
Wednesday it was hit again but the storm had dropped below Cat. 5.
Thursday it was hit for the fourth time, but by a mere tropical storm.
I personally know many people who rode out the storm in Guanaja. There were a number of locals with wind speed indicators. The anecdotes about wind speed can be summed up with the statement that "The local wind speed instruments invariably failed in the range of 240 to 260 MPH."
If a hurricane such as Mitch had hit Louisiana, New Orleans would probably been flooded while the hurricane was many miles away, possibly the other side of Cuba. As bad as Katrina was, a lot of people have seen much worse just a few years ago.
If a hurricane such as Mitch ever visits New Orleans, I am sure that the area will be resetled rather than rebuilt.
Just for comparison, look at some of the stats for Mitch. It doesn't make a lot of the lists stateside because many (most?) of the lists are restricted to hurricanes that strike the U.S.
The death toll of Mitch in southern Honduras, several hundred miles away from the center of the storm is estimated at 7000 or 8000 souls. Original estimates were "More than 5000, Less than 10,000." Whole villages and the inhabitants were obliterated by flash flooding. In the capital city, Tegucigalpa, buildings were flooded to the third floor.
Hundreds of miles to the North East, the island of Guanaja was hit on Monday with a Cat. 5 hurricane.
Tuesday it was hit again with a stronger Cat 5 hurricane.
Wednesday it was hit again but the storm had dropped below Cat. 5.
Thursday it was hit for the fourth time, but by a mere tropical storm.
I personally know many people who rode out the storm in Guanaja. There were a number of locals with wind speed indicators. The anecdotes about wind speed can be summed up with the statement that "The local wind speed instruments invariably failed in the range of 240 to 260 MPH."
If a hurricane such as Mitch had hit Louisiana, New Orleans would probably been flooded while the hurricane was many miles away, possibly the other side of Cuba. As bad as Katrina was, a lot of people have seen much worse just a few years ago.
If a hurricane such as Mitch ever visits New Orleans, I am sure that the area will be resetled rather than rebuilt.
New Orleans won't be abandoned. If people think about it logically, over say 300-400 years - this was a bad one, probably the worst, and depending on your political view could have been worser or better. But the human spirit is a resilient sort, and the accompanying stubborness good or bad, is part of that spirit.
- Thread starter
- #20
It's funny how some folks adapt to bad conditions. When I lived in Cincinnati many years ago, the riverfront amusement park had a tall pole marked with flood levels. It was as though they took perverse pleasure out of their annual spring flood.
(Some tolerate the hurricanes, others tolerate the tornadoes, SW unbearable desert heat, heavy lake effect snow, etc.) Central Michigan has a lot going for it; two cold months, two hot months, and the rest of the time generally nice weather. It's nice to be able to chose your locale after retirement.
(Some tolerate the hurricanes, others tolerate the tornadoes, SW unbearable desert heat, heavy lake effect snow, etc.) Central Michigan has a lot going for it; two cold months, two hot months, and the rest of the time generally nice weather. It's nice to be able to chose your locale after retirement.
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