About change in thinking who are called engineers 10

[19652022]

In recent years I have noticed or felt that the meaning of ENGINEER has been taken very lightly. In our times to be an engineer was a tough task with very sound foundation of knowledge of mathematics and science and had very good talent. Not every body had good command of these subjects and so Engineers became only those who were very very genious people. But now a days every subject was coined the name of engineering be it management or something else.So i think the weight of the term engineer has been reduced considerably in recent years. Do you agree with this view?

 

[ajack1]

This does seem to be a US concept. In the UK anyone who works or is trained in an engineering discipline is an engineer.

 

[Slugger926]

Ditto: I know too many people being called engineers that can't even do simple Algebra. Then the company execs use that as an excuse why not to pay engineers what they are worth. The execs also have no clue what a real engineer can do, and how to utilize them.

 

[mrMikee]

I agree that it seems to be getting worse, especially in mechanical engineering. The last few places I worked let just about anybody into the engineering department; maintneance guys, salesmen, shop forement, and called them engineers. In fact the head of the last engineering department I worked for didn't even make through high school.

Regards,
-Mike

 

[rhodie]

I would suggest that part of the disconnect that 19652022 brings up for discussion is from oversimplifying the correlation between schooling and good engineers.

I know a few men that never made it past high school and have a well developed and keen, albiet narrow, body of knowledge of an engineering specialty, complete with maths, physics, and theory related to their field. They have a naturally high ability to be very good at what they do.

On the other hand, I graduated from college with at least 15 people that could not translate nor apply what they had learned into a practical environment. While owning swift minds, and having a very broad knowledge of advanced math and physics, they quite simply would not be good for much of anything outside the alma mater laboratories and libraries.

University credentials do not provide authentication, they only provide context.

 

[mrMikee]

rhodie,

I too have worked with people in both groups that you talk about. In the past the designers and non-degreed engineers I knew had allot of experience and a high level of mechanical aptitude. Many worked their way into managerial positions where their experience and in-depth knowledge of the product and processes was a valuable asset to the company. Most were conscientious and very ethical, something you don't need an engineering degree for.

This seems to have changed however, at least at the companies I have worked for in the last ten years in the midwest (US). Instead of bringing in people to go through the learning process, my employers have brought in people with no engineering or management experience at all, and put them in charge. It seems that management and owners are so out of touch with what engineering and manufacturing is, that they are unable to recognize who it is they should hire to fix the problems. The resulting situation has not been fun to be part of.

So I do agree with 19652022, things have changed.

Regards,
-Mike

 

[19652022]

Most of the people without engineering degree and who have gained a lot of experience in the field of engineering usually have illusion that their limited knowledge is equal to the rigorous knowledge gained from college courses.I think this is just an illusion.The engineers should be called only those with proper engineering education.
This is equavalent to calling a person a Doctor just by knowing that for example aspirin can be used for pain killing.

 

[QCE]

19652022,

I doubt you will much luck with this line of thinking in this forum. This forum contains many nondegreed engineered and designers that work with the title engineer in a variety of countries. I think many of them have a large amount of technical knowledge to share with the group. If you think Eng-tips is only degreed engineers you are mistaken. Some countries have tryed to control the word engineer. It is not working well. For example the provincal and national associations have tryed to restrict the title of engineer to degreed engineers. It does not work. Canada is better off then most countries as far as this goes. In Canada at least the title professional engineer is working. Many companies only hire professional engineers. This means only degreed engineers with at least 4 years experience. If a technical person thinks they have enough knowledge to pass the required exams they can challenge the tests and become a professional engineer also. It is very rare, simply because many technical people are specialized in a field and don't have broad understanding and they did not have to sit through 4 years of math and physics lectures.

 

[rb1957]

QCE,

there's two sides to the canadian system, i think i was on the other side !?

back in my day (several years ago now, maybe things have changed) the ONLY acceptable university was a canadian one (maybe north american). i had the misfortune (good fortune?) to graduate from an australian university, and so after some 15 years experience (and having an MRAeS and a CEng) they wanted me to sit many technical exams. my reply was short, and they allowed me a board interview which was a farse (i'm sure that spelling's wrong, but Word won't help, and it does get my meaning across !!).

this board interview was with three PEng's, who no doubt knew something of the engineering they practiced, but none of mine ... a favourite story of mine was when discussing my work on nacelles, one of them asked "what's a nacelle?" ... "its where the engine is, like on startrek" was my reply.

the interview ended shortly after that !, with me being released for having to sit the exams.

 

[wes616]

from MACHINE DESIGN Magazine, Online

Read the Last Sentence Carefully!

Seventy five years of publishing and the birth of design engineering

I know of no book that chronicles the origins of design engineering. The history of its development and evolution is almost entirely oral. I learned the story, at least one version of it, only because I happened to know somebody who years ago once knew somebody who a long time ago worked for somebody who was there when design engineering was first recognized as a distinct profession.

Manufacturing industries began to take shape in a big way in the second half of the nineteenth century. Major industries at that time often were created from the genius of table-top inventors and tinkerers. Names like Edison, McCormick, and Bell come to mind, to be joined later by the likes of Ford, Firestone, Marconi, and the Wright Brothers. This age saw the introduction of railroads, steamships, agricultural machinery, electrical power generation, massproduced automobiles, and airplanes.

Early inventors usually had laboratory assistants who turned sketches or mere verbal instructions into practical hardware. As a company grew and parts had to be defined by engineering drawings so they could be made in factories, draftsmen replaced lab assistants as the people who defined the configuration of products and component parts. As draftsmen did more and more of the detailing , they were also increasingly asked to use their own initiative in determining the form of the product, and that is how the function of design engineering emerged.

Did anybody ring a bell when design engineering emerged as a profession? Well, in a sense, they did. As late as the 1920s, draftsmen and designers were closely associated with machinists. In fact, the magazines read by designers and draftsmen were the ones published for machinists. Machinist publications of the era contain a lot of information on design and drafting.

Then two separate publishing companies more or less simultaneously rang a bell, so to speak, and each introduced a magazine aimed directly and solely at design engineers. They were the first to recognize design engineering as a distinct job junction apart from machining and manufacturing. One of these publications was MACHINE DESIGN, which has been published continuously since 1929. The other publication is no longer in existence.

Universities at the time recognized engineering as an academic course of study. But engineering courses tended to be slanted toward such endeavors as mining, surveying, bridge and highway construction, metallurgy, welding, machining, foundry practice, and chemistry. These were the glamorous growth industries of their day. Aside from the first principles of mathematics, physics, and applied mechanics, design knowledge specific to manufacturing industries was something that has to be picked up on the job.

In the mechanical-engineering curriculum, however, there was usually a course that covered most of the important aspects of design engineering. It included a bit of stress analysis, kinematics, bearing technology, mechanisms, gear design, and fastener applications. The course was called machine design, and it was from this academic subject that our magazine got its name. Machine Design enlarged the scope of the course, however, by also covering electric motors and controls, which are often at the heart of a manufactured product.

Interestingly, the link from engineering first principles to workaday engineering in industry is still something that, for the most part, is learned on the job. Product design remains too industryspecific to be taught at the university level in a meaningful way.

Wes C.

 

[QCE]

I'm not sure what is your point rb. You have a degree you had the experience they interviewed you and you knew your stuff and they gave you your PEng. What was the problem besides the interview being weak?

Things have changed any recognized international degree will be accepted.

 

[rb1957]

QCE,

the problem was two fold ...
not accrediting overseas universities (which it seems they've fixed now),
and a completely useless interview (well that's how it looked to me).

 

[livingston]

Most licensed engineers feel that they are the only ones who should carry the title (which is legal). Those who carry a BS in engineering feel that they should be able to carry the title. People with many years of experience feel that they are entitled as well. Many companies just give the title to whoever they want. It's a never-ending discussion because those affected will never agree.

 

[cuky2000]

In New York State, who can practice professional engineering?
Section 7202 of the New York State Education Law states that, "Only a person licensed or otherwise authorized under this article shall practice engineering or use the title 'professional engineer'...." A "person licensed" is an individual that has qualified by education, experience and examination and has been issued a New York State professional engineering license by the State Education Department.

 

[Slugger926]

cuky2000 - Does the NY law have anything stating an exeption for Industry?

Oklahoma's law is almost identical to the one stated above, except you can't even have Engineer in your title if you don't have a P.E. license in this state.

Texas added expeptions for empolyees of Telecom companies doing work for the Telecom companies.

 

[wes616]

For me, I would like to see less government intrusion. Less regulators telling me what I can and can not do. If I was in an industry that had less to do with personal safety (like consumer producs) I wouldn't see the point there either. And there is no way in hell I would ever sign my name to anything (in the aerospace industry) that would bring even the most remote of chances of being held personally liable for what I ENGINEER!

Wes C.

 

[QCE]

I guess the title professional assumes that you do take responsiblity for your engineering and hence the higher pay. However I agree with you that I would not but I guess that is why my pay is not that high.

 

[Tobalcane]

“This does seem to be a US concept. In the UK anyone who works or is trained in an engineering discipline is an engineer.”

I thought in the UK when you hear the title engineer the first person that they would think of would be a TV repairman or garage mechanic?


Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

 

[GregLocock]

No, that is an alarmist viewpoint spread about by those with an agenda.

Oddly enough in the UK there are not many instances of bridges being designed by scaffolding erection 'engineers', or sewage systems designed by sanitation 'engineers'.

Because, basically, businesses aren't that stupid. (Having said that there have been cases where designs have been made with insufficient oversight, I remember that Flixborough was used as an example). There again that seems to happen everywhere to some extent.




Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[BillPSU]

Getting a PE used to be a straight forward undertaking. Take the EIT then get the proscribed number of years of experience then take the PE exam. There was no requirement for a degree at all. That all changed about 15 years ago. Now before you can even take the EIT test you must have a degree from an accredited college and get a BS in Engineering. I happened to know an individual who took many engineering related courses yet did not graduate who took the exam and got his PE the last year before it changed.
I happen to have a BS in Engineering Technology which makes it impossible for me to take the EIT in my current state of Kansas. But I can take the South Dakota EIT test and get my PE there as the requirements are different. If I was an Oklahoma resident I could also take the test and get my PE. So if I get my PE in SD or OK should I be allowed to call myself an engineer in Kansas or Missouri? Should not having your degree preclude you from taking a test to prove your proficiency? I am not pursuing my PE but feel if a person can pass the tests and have the years of experience should be enough for a PE. My specialty is Manufacturing Engineering which I have done for 25 years. There are no states who give a PE in manufacturing engineering.
I still find it interesting to discover people with minimal education who were the founders of current day engineering fields and others who greatly appreciated in their field of endeavor who do not have degrees. The Wright brothers, Harry S. Truman, George Washington, and Bill Gates to name a few.