Accepting then declining 3

[EECardinal]

Is it ethical to accept an offer then decline at a later date. I feel that the company has not done their part to help me, i was made an offer at the first of January and I'm not one month from graduation and still have no start date, but i just got another offer thats even better. Is it wrong to back out now? There is no contract and it says that the company or I can end the employment relationship at any time for any or no reason.

 

[moltenmetal]

A contract need not be written down to be binding, but a contract is NOT a contract without "consideration"- something of real and unambiguous value, agreed to by both parties, which changes hands. A handshake or signature on a piece of paper alone does not make a contract.

A job offer is NOT a contract, even if accepted, and even if both parties agree to it in writing. If they pay you a signing bonus, or relocation fees, then that's a different matter.

 

[PeterStock]

With no start date given, the OP does not actually have a firm offer from the first company. While I would suggest giveing the hiring manager (not HR) a call first to see if you can get a start date etc or just to let him know what your intent is, I do not see any problem with taking a better offer given the cirumstances as given. Do give the hiring manager a call, he may be not aware that HR has dropped the ball (no start date one month from graduation, that is dropping the ball to me).

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services

http://www.infotechpr.net

 

[MedicineEng]

Let me see if I understand the issue:

-In January, a company made you a job offer without details, namely start date which you verbally accepted;
-4 months later, you don't have yet any start date or more details;
-Meanwhile, you got another offer which is better.

I have some questions:
-Do you keep in touch with your company #1? How do you know that they are still interested on you? How do you know that there wasn't any hiring freeze come into force? How do you know that meanwhile they already found another guy to your position and "forgot" to let you know, just to keep you hanging and just in case their first choice blew it?

After you answer those questions, you will find the solution for your problem.

 

[MedicineEng]

Not exact you case but draw your conclusions:
-I'm expatriate in SouthEast Asia for 8 years. 3 or 4 years ago, I saw an advertisement from a headhunter with a job position for my country that matched exactly my skills and experience. I applied, and coincidently, I was going back for holidays during the interviewing process. I went to 2 interviews with the headhunter, which were quite sucessful and then the last interview with the general manager of the company which I felt quite sucessful also. There was some negotiation over salary and benefits, but everything seemed to move in the right direction. I had to make a several long trips (around 1000Km) to visit family, so I was waiting for a decision from them.
I called the headhunter several times, explaining that I was on holidays and had to make some trips,that I was waiting for some asnwers to know if I had to go for the final meeting. They always said that the company was really impressed with me, that they were interested, and blablabla...After the 3rd call to them, I just went on with my life and continue my holidays. After a week or so, they called me saying that after all they chose another guy since the beginning and in the end they confessed that they were just waiting him to sign the contract to tell me so. So they hanged me there with smooth talk just in case the other guy didn't accept or they find out that he just a psycopathic assassin.
Well, in the end this didn't go bad for me. I continue expatriate but my salary increased around 30% since.

 

[apsix]

A check of EECardinal's profile reveals he has logged in once, on 12 April.
I guess our advice wasn't required after all!

 

[MechEng2005]

Regardless of if a verbal contract is binding or not, the OP stated:

"There is no contract and it says that the company or I can end the employment relationship at any time for any or no reason."

While I'm not sure what "it" refers to, the agreement was at-will anyways. The OP and company could sign the contract with a notary and TV cameras as witnesses, have a huge black-tie signing ceremony, and it wouldn't matter if he woke up the next morning and quit. I have never really been a fan of "at-will" clause in most engineering employement. However, typically the hiring company is writing the contract, and if they put it in there, it's fair game. It's not sleazy, rude, unethical, etc.

It's not a "loophole" or working around the "rules". The company wrote the rules, explicitly allowing certain behaviors. If the other "player" uses methods allowed by those rules, what is wrong with that?

-- MechEng2005

 

[IRstuff]

The OP's question was, "Is it WRONG? (my emphasis)"

So the issue is really whether the OP gave his word, or promise, to the employer, and whether it's "wrong," whatever that means to whomever, to repudiate his response.

There are those that say that companies are not honorable to their employees, and therefore the OP need not be honorable to them; I'm not going to debate whether companies are that way or not. People need to adhere to a higher standard, though.

Do you want your children to behave that way?

Do you want a reputation for behaving that way?

I'm frankly very disappointed in the attitude of, "Well, they'd screw me in a heartbeat, so I'm justified in screwing them, in advance." Is that the moral lesson one teaches their children?

Are we to become a society of backstabbing liars because other people MIGHT do that to us? Odd to think that some of those in that camp might be ostensibly otherwise pious/religious people who might espouse something about loving thy neighbot, and turning one's cheek.

Others, of course, are ostensibly ethically bound by their professional engineer's licenses and oaths, including those that think that all engineers should be PEs. Is that the behavior that a PE should aspire to? Is that how PEs are supposed to earn the respect of the public?

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[MechEng2005]

In response to IRstuff:

1) I do not think I'd be upset if my children made the same decision I would make in their situation.

2) I will take my chances with have a reputation of disloyalty based on the above described situation before I follow a company around with puppy-dog eyes asking "How high?" when the company says "Jump."

3) It's not "screwing them." The prospective employer has not followed-up on their stated intentions in a reasonable amount of time. Regardless of if walking away after agreeing to verbal statements of intent is disloyal or not, I find it disrespectful (to say the least) to indicate an intent to provide a firm offer and then not follow up within 3 months. If I were an employer, and would be "screwed" if I wasn't able to hire a certain individual, I would certainly make more of an effort.

4) "Are we going to become a society of backstabbing liars because other people MIGHT do that to us?" I hope not. However, I will teach my children not to blindly get into a strangers car or go into their home based on what that stranger MIGHT do to them. If my choice to try to protect my children or myself is the downfall of society, well, I will go with the excuse that I was influenced by that same society in my choices.


I do not think that it is wrong if somebody else sees the situation differently or has a different opinion. I think there is room for intelligent, good, loyal people on both sides of this issue. I continue discussing because I feel strongly and I participate in the forums because I enjoy an open discussion of ideas and opinions.

-- MechEng2005

 

[IRstuff]

The OP hasn't posted squat since day one, so I have no idea what the actual "situation" is, and I don't know whether the OP is imsply trying to rationalize his desire to bail for a higher salary.

Seems to me that the "situation" isn't even that clear cut, since the OP apparently didn't bother to follow up either.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[EECardinal]

For those that think I don't check this...I have read every single post promptly after I received the notification in my email inbox. You need not login to read. All the advice and insight has been taken into consideration and I made a decision to go with company 2. Company 1 called me 4/21 to tell me that I still had no start date or location so I informed them of my decision to take the other offer, wrote a letter retracting my acceptance of the position. Company 2 gave me a start date 2 days after graduation in my hometown for more money. Money wasn't really the biggest issue but the certainty of a start date and location was. All the advice and insight is greatly appreciated, i'm glad so many responded. THANKS!!!!

 

[moltenmetal]

IRStuff: what I've advocated is that the OP determine which job is better for them AND for the prospective employer, based on their own values, and leave the issue of which offer came in first aside from the discussion. I cannot decide for someone which is more important: their interest in the type of work, the pay, other benefits, the opportunity for growth or advancement, or their feeling of duty or honour in making an agreement- each person values these things differently.

If the business reason for the job position disappears, the firm making the 1st offer can and likely will cancel the offer and give the OP NO COMPENSATION to the prospective candidate. You may consider that harsh and ungenteel, but it's business reality. Given this fact, a firm cannot expect someone who has accepted an offer of employment to treat this offer as if it were a contract, nor can they expect compensation from the candidate who accepted and then withdrew their acceptance, for the cost of going back to the marketplace to find another candidate.

Do I feel that my first employer dealt with me shabbily? Yes, but they could have been worse still and simply withdrawn the position entirely, leaving me far worse off. Would I do the same to a prospective employee? I don't know how willing I'd be to take a pay cut to pay the salary of an unemployed and now-unnecessary employee simply because some months earlier the firm had agreed to hire him or her. Now if this person had left gainful employ elsewhere to take this offered position, there might be a legal case for compensation- I don't know, you'd need to consult a lawyer on that one.

Frankly I consider myself to be at fault as well: I was young and naive and had an idealistic and inaccurate view of the employer/employee relationship and the nature of an agreement.

If candidates and firms want to have contractual rights, money has to change hands to generate a cost to either party of withdrawing from the agreement. Only then can it be considered a contract. Not only does that make legal sense to me, it makes ethical sense as well.

Frankly I share MechEng2005's opinion. I get quite sick of being preached to by people who seem to think that the ethical responsibilities of a professional engineer require them to allow their employers to treat them as doormats, or to treat the employer/employee business relationship as anything other than what it is. Frankly it's this point of view that has done much damage to the position of the engineering profession relative to that of other professions over the years in my estimation. There is a HUGE difference between holding the public safety as paramount even if that means losing your job, and withdrawing from a non-contractual business agreement later found to be unsatisfactory. One of the ethical obligations of a professional engineer is to openly take just compensation for their work, and to uphold the principle of fair compensation for engineering work, and that responsibility is one that I see far too many professional engineers taking less than seriously.

 

[mauricestoker]

That would be worth two stars.

From the employer side, I have made offers to engineers and construction managers, which were accepted. Subsquently, the talented young prospects were offered higher salary. If I can't get these people the salary they obviously deserve, then it is my problem, not theirs. No hard feelings, get it while you can, and if things don't work out, keep me in mind. Burning bridges goes two ways, and people don't eat in the long run.

 

[FeX32]

Yes. Lets start a revolution. Everyone getting paid under 80 grand quite right now.
For real though, fight for what you deserve. No one else will.



Fe

 

[FeX32]

quit*******************************************


Fe

 

[TDAA]

Good choices EE. I was going to post about the certainty of a start date. It is not like company 1 would be paying you a retainer not to take another job while they figure out if they need you to work or not.

To me, it seems that they may be waiting on a project to be awarded, or to start. Neither of which are good guarantees when you may start.

 

[BRGENG]

No one else is going to watch your back. Take the offer that is best for your long term goals.

 

[MedicineEng]

EECardinal:

Just out of curiosity, what was the reaction of company 1 when you retracted your acceptance?