Advantages and Disadvantages of a DBE 6

[structuralengr89]

As the title implies, what are the advantages and disadvantages of a DBE?

I'm currently a small structural firm in the U.S. and have entertained the idea of bringing in a partner (a minority) who would have 51% of the business. On some large projects (Federal Government, State DOT, Large Commercial) I often see questions regarding if my firm is a DBE or not. I have not considered this previously because I have wanted owners to hire my firm because of it's abilities and not a quota.

Is it advantageous from a profitability standpoint for a business to be a DBE or not? I am not interested in a debate on the social issues.

Thanks

 

[lacajun]

Several years ago I considered going this route. When the certifying organizations couldn't get their act together, I decided against it. Some of the organizations didn't return communication and one couldn't get organized enough to help me and stopped communicating. None of them left me with a good impression.

As a woman in engineering, with 28 years of experience, I don't perceive any "privilege" in terms of social equity.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter

 

[Maui]

Raspivy, based on your reply it appears that you agree with the practice of awarding business contracts based on the ethnic background of the company owners, and not their capability. This by itself is a perfect example of racism. In what way does this form of racism differ from the white privilege you described in your previous post?

Maui

 

[spieng89]

Maui, incorrect. Companies shall have to measure up to the proper standards no matter their background. The key is all companies should have the SAME ACCESS to be able to be measured. If Bob always hires Jim to do work because that's all he knows how will Bob know Mary can do good work unless Mary is given access to Bob? Understand? The fact that you can't see this is clear evidence of privilege and/or belief in imaginary equality in America.

 

[lacajun]

Not too long ago, I called on a manufacturing company. It was very clear I was not going to get anywhere because I was a front for a male owned company that was really going to do the work. He then claimed black owned engineering firms are fronts for white, male owned engineering firms that are really going to do the work. We, women and African Americans, in his mind are not as smart as white men and cannot do engineering. If you cannot get beyond people like that, you cannot sit at the bidding table. And, that is probably the culture of the company, which means even if you can speak with someone higher than an engineer, you will not be sitting at the bidding table.

People dislike political correctness but there are reasons it exists.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter

 

[Maui]

The fact that you can't see this is clear evidence of privilege and/or belief in imaginary equality in America

raspivey, I have no illusions about the inequalities that exist in our society. But based on the false assumptions you have made about me as expressed in the quote above you seem to think that people who do not share your perspective on this subject are the "oppressors". I get the impression that your attitude is that if I'm not with you then I must be against you. I understand that bias should not play any role in the awarding of business contracts. But it often does because there are people involved in making those decisions. And people are often biased in their decision making, even if their goal is to be completely objective. Due to the type of tactics used by some people where they try to game the system we end up with people in positions of authority developing a perspective similar to what was expressed to Pamela above. No, it isn't right and shouldn't be the case, but that is the reality.

The way you express yourself in your posts reminds me of this lyric from Billy Joel entitled "The Angry Young Man",

...I believe I've passed the age of consciousness and righteous rage
I found that just surviving was a noble fight.
I once believed in causes too. I had my pointless point of view.
And life went on no matter who was wrong or right.
But there's always a place for the angry young man with his fist in the air and his head in the sand.
And he's never been able to learn from mistakes so he can't understand why his heart always breaks.
And his honor is pure and his courage as well and he's fair and he's true and he's boring as hell.
And he'll go the grave as an angry old man.

Maui

 

[spieng89]

The way you express yourself in your posts reminds me of this lyric from Billy Joel entitled "The Angry Young Man"

I prefer to think of myself as unapologetic in my opinions. They can be changed of course, but no one will mistake my opinion for a suggestion and look upon me as passive. You are correct "people" with emotions and feelings make the decisions, so bias is inevitable...but last I checked that is why laws were established in societies going back centuries. "People" don't always know what's best for society as a whole therefor laws (just hopefully) are put in place to guide people to treat each other with respect and fairness. In turn it creates a more harmonious society and everyone feels secure in their position and representation. The reason you may not feel as strong about this topic is because you are already secure in your position so it's okay to wait for times to change slowly without direct action. But for those in the minority time is of the essence...food for thought.

Think about this quote and how it relates to the topic:

“White writers can be blunt about race and get all activist because their anger isn’t threatening”
― Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, Americanah

You see views contrary to yours as threatening because you don't feel the urgency. It's a matter of perspective and I don't necessarily blame you personally for your shortcomings in realizing a minorities struggle as a minority equally wouldn't be able to recognize yours.

 

[CWB1]

Companies shall have to measure up to the proper standards no matter their background. The key is all companies should have the SAME ACCESS to be able to be measured. If Bob always hires Jim to do work because that's all he knows how will Bob know Mary can do good work unless Mary is given access to Bob? Understand? The fact that you can't see this is clear evidence of privilege and/or belief in imaginary equality in America.

Yet despite highly regulated government bidding requirements providing the SAME ACCESS to EVERYONE in an OPEN environment, we need to create special restrictions on all others solely for the benefit of "minorities?" Thats almost as delusional and backwards as your quote above from Americanah. I've said it many times, but as a society we have been socially regressing for decades by pandering to perpetual victimhood and refusing to treat everyone as equals.

 

[jgailla]

Yes, decades ago everyone was treated as equals in the US.

 

[cvg]

clearly, America has never been the land of equals or of equal opportunities and no amount of government intervention is ever going to change that. In fact, intervention always favors some over others. America is "the land of opportunity" which is really the American Dream. Best keep on dreaming, or move to Denmark.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Dream

 

[zelgar]

Companies shall have to measure up to the proper standards no matter their background. The key is all companies should have the SAME ACCESS to be able to be measured. If Bob always hires Jim to do work because that's all he knows how will Bob know Mary can do good work unless Mary is given access to Bob? Understand? The fact that you can't see this is clear evidence of privilege and/or belief in imaginary equality in America.

Unless Bob has an exclusive contract with Jim, Bob can hire Mary. Of course, what realistically happens is that since Bob knows he can rely on Jim to get the work done reliably and at a cost he feels is acceptable, he has no incentive to look elsewhere (i.e., Mary). If Jim can't do the work, or Bob feels it'll cost too much, he may look elsewhere.

Someone might say this is the ole boys network, but we all do it. Many people will go to the same specialist (e.g., plumber, mechanic, hair dresser/barber) because they've had a positive experience with them for past work. You know what to expect with someone you've seen before versus someone new.

 

[CWB1]

Bob better be careful if he's here stateside in a government position, the US has the most stringent anti-corruption, equal-opportunity, and open-government laws in the world and many folks would take a dim view on his actions. Not to suggest good 'ol boy networking doesnt still occur, but at least here Mary has the tools to bring to light Bob's corruption to the general public and effect his removal and/or prosecution.

 

[SwinnyGG]

many private sector jobs (which may not require small/minority firm inclusion) tend to hire firms based on the "good ol' boy network" and not necessarily the best qualified firm. I find that often, many firms are disillusioned in thinking they win work based solely off their own merits and not because the client feels comfortable with them based on surface preferences i.e. older white males (in America) typically have a leg up as developers tend to be older white males based on America's social history.]

This is ASININE.

Completely.

Money talks. If you run a concrete company, and I need to buy concrete, and your concrete sucks, I'm not going to buy it. Your crappy concrete is going to cost me money. It doesn't matter if I like you or not.

There are certainly examples of people who make hiring or contract decisions based on race- but in my industry, performance is ALL that matters. Margins are tight. A friend or acquaintance only gets a contract from us if they are least likely to cause us to wind up in the red at the end of a project.

I personally deal with something like 100-150 suppliers of various things ranging from steel and concrete and other raw materials, up to finished goods like controls components and bolts and a million other things.

The vase majority of these people I deal with on the phone- I can (usually) tell if they are male or female, but beyond that, I have little idea of their age or race; I care about neither. I call them over and over because they are good at their jobs.

Timelines are tight, budgets are optimistic, and margins are small in pretty much every engineering market. Awarding jobs by the "good 'ol boy network" is a quick path to substandard work- and substandard work is a quick path to reduced RFQs, which means reduced contract awards, which means reduced money in everyone's pockets.

For better or worse, money talks.

 

[CWB1]

Money does talk but people also do make silly emotion-based decisions as well. My industry is largely driven by merit, however if I had a nickel for every lousy directional dictation given by management or executives regarding the use of bad suppliers and ass-backward technology I'd be long retired.

Regardless, this thread isn't about private industry except that which involves government contracts and comparing the two is apples and oranges. Love it or hate it, private (non-govt) business transactions are constitutionally protected as are US citizens' rights to be biased, even to the point of bigotry. Business transactions dealing with the govt OTOH are highly regulated, a bureaucrat cannot legally apply his own biases to purchases made and contrary to his counterparts in the private sector, his actions are all a matter of public record.

 

[lacajun]

jgKRI, you may be unusual in your practices. I've listened to male managers list all of the problems they have but insist on using the same engineering firms. Sometimes relationships and gender trump money. ;-) You have to chuckle and move on or catch their myopia.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter

 

[beej67]

Disgusting way to approach finding a business partner IMO.

And yet, it's what the law incentivizes.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -

http://www.campbellcivil.com